Defense of the New Books

[SandRider]

Duke: what size hat you wear, son ?
I've got some black Stetsons big enough to block out the sun.
(for the record, I piled on the spelling & grammar thing, too, and
personally attacked him for no other reason than I'm a grumpy
mean old bastard - not apologizing for that, mind you.)

As I said before, Simon's got heart or brain damage, one.
He can't carry out the argument, and that makes him an easy target.
In the long run, I think this has/will be good for him. Strikes me as one
of those timid little geeks that got picked on in high school. Maybe
he'll learn how to dish it back out instead of taking it all the time.
Good for him if he does. He can start right here.

I just can't get over the avatar. I can't. Tried. Can't.
Makes my skin crawl ....

[TheDukester]

My only hope is that one day they will stop and we can go back to discussing FH's books.

I hear what you're saying here, and I recognize the problem: those two idiots get the lion's share of the commentary because they're the clowns currently writing about "Dune."

I'm hoping to get away from hack-bashing, if I can, or to at least lower my output on the subject. I'm thinking of re-reading Dune, actually, and seeing what others think in the "reading group" threads. I've never really checked those out.

[Freakzilla]

[And, as long as I'm at it, I'll add an apology to Kevin J. Anderson. Kevin, I'm sor- ... ha! got you! No way that's ever going to happen. I go to bed each night, Kevvie, hoping that you contract a very large (but non-fatal), itchy, and socially unacceptable skin rash.

My jaw slowly started dropping as I read that, until I started laughing. Thanks!

[Freakzilla]

I'm hoping to get away from hack-bashing, if I can, or to at least lower my output on the subject. I'm thinking of re-reading Dune, actually, and seeing what others think in the "reading group" threads. I've never really checked those out.

Please do, it has only recently been completed. My intention was for people to have a place to comment on each chapter in each book, no matter what your pace or what book you are on. I put a lot of work into it and I hope more people use it.

[Mandy]

I wasn't only talking about you Dukester. You may have started the comments on "your" and "you're" but someone else picked them up and ran with them.. I think it was SandRider. Picking on him for using shitty grammar and spelling is alright, but it was pounded into the ground. That's all I was saying. Then, I read a post saying that he couldn't get any pussy or some such shit, and I was kinda taken aback at how retarded this thread became. Most of this thread makes us look bad, not the preeks.

[SandChigger]

I'm hearing that guy that used to do the "You may be a redneck" routine:

If you constantly misspell words and don't even try to correct yourself and use some lame excuse like "Its cause I wuz typin lahk lightnin"...well my friend...you just may be an idiot.


Me, I'm not interested in taking prisoners and converting them anymore. Virtual death to the infidels! This is JIHAD!!!

[Mandy]

Yeah, but fighting idiocy with idiocy makes us all idiots

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

Nevertheless, I disagree with the idea of just "ignoring" the McDune, because you CAN"T and still have dune discussions. This is my point. Its infiltrated just about all Dune conversations like maggots on a corpse. Which ruins the conversation for me. One of the most interesting things about discussing the Duniverse is putting together all the little pieces of the puzzle, scattered throughout the books, to fill in the gaps. Now these hacks are filling it in for us, with pieces that don't fucking fit! If my miniscule little part in this drama causes JUST ONE DUNE FAN to reject the "new canon" and refuse to read them--then I consider that a victory.....

I entirely agree with MTB.

I will rise a point now that I find related to what MTB said but maybe it's not the most important. It annoys me always when I think about all types of products that can be made using the Dune Universe:

I like to play RPG, and I would love to play a nice PC game based on Duniverse. However I'm very concerned that all my taste for these things can be destroyed by the new books. I wouldn't like to buy a RPG book set in Duniverse with a lot of mention of BG telekinetic power, House Vernius, Onmius, Eramus, robo-piloted shuttle, Ultra-spices,...That wouldn't be the universe I like, wouldn't be the book I expected to buy. And the same would happen to PC games.

Do you see what is the problem? They are contamination the Duniverse with concepts, characters and plots that will never be disassociated from the FH's universe that I want! When I would play some game about the Jihad of Muad'dib I will have to I find myself dealing with characters like Marie Fenring! For me thats the end of Duniverse in RPG and games products...Unhappily, they don't even started.....

[TheDukester]

For me thats the end of Duniverse in RPG and games products...Unhappily, they don't even started.....

Not to mention that KKA and Whatsisface took an active role in killing off the Dune RPG from Last Unicorn/Wizards of the Coast.

I could go off on this for pages, but this site tells the story pretty well:

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11518.phtml

(The only good part? It's highly collectible. And I gots one. )

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

For me thats the end of Duniverse in RPG and games products...Unhappily, they don't even started.....

Not to mention that KKA and Whatsisface took an active role in killing off the Dune RPG from Last Unicorn/Wizards of the Coast.

I could go off on this for pages, but this site tells the story pretty well:

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11518.phtml

(The only good part? It's highly collectible. And I gots one. )

I knew about that, but I didn't know about the whole story behind, thanks.

I have the Chronicles of Imperium in PDF format, but I expect to buy it when I have the money for it.

I know they will try to re-launch Dune in the games and RPG, however it's too late to wait for purity on it.

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11518.phtml

"They hoped, at some point, to release a d20 version of DUNE, and such is indicated in the book's title page. However, at some point the license expired and they decided not to take the trouble of renewing it. (Either there was trouble with the Herbert Estate, or the license became more expensive in light of the commercial success of the miniseries and the incipient prequel novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, which have sold well despite some emphatically negative (and in this case profane) reviews. Or they were just dumb.) The news that there would not be a d20 DUNE contributed further to the notoriety and collectibility of the ICON version, which remains the only DUNE RPG in existence (indeed, there have been no gaming tie-ins of any kind with DUNE since this whole hubbub.)
[...]
Almost. On the credits page we see proper billing given to the designers, the developers of the ICON system, and of course the editors- Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. When I first noticed this, I said to myself, "well, that explains it," but of course it does no such thing. If you're not familiar with licensed RPGs, just bear in mind that the creators of the property in question generally do not edit the games based on them. George Lucas does not claim developing credit on any incarnation of the STAR WARS RPG, nor is Joss Whedon listed as the editor for the BUFFY game. There are two major reasons for this. The first is that people like this are very busy; the second is that they are not game designers, and most likely have no clue how to put an RPG book together. They know nothing of balanced mechanics and rules terminology. So for Herbert and Anderson to take this credit (in addition to a credit as Creative Consultants) raises questions. Is it mere title-hogging, or a misunderstanding of how game books are put together, or does it suggest they were looking over the designers' shoulders even more intrusively than the average licensor, perhaps then explaining why WotC declined to renew the agreement? Did they, out of all the license holders in all the world, actually know how to edit a rulebook? Or was it just a typo? We may never know.
[...]
Then again, maybe the Estate wanted the emphasis to be on the new-on-shelves prequel books, and pushed for that focus just a bit too hard. Never rule anything out when it comes to licenses and the behavior of the people who own them. "

Now I will loose all the respect I tried to keep (even after being banned by the DN forum). Read it very well, Byron:

FUCK YOU, HLP!

How could they lost their contract with the Wizard of the Coast??? Are they so much really stupid???How could they lost their chance to release Dune in the d20 system (the most played RPG system in the world, very famous here in Brazil too)???

I'm felling sickness.

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

I agree...I'm sorry...I wrote about this theme because I wanted to quote MTB.

hey, Freak, could you move the whole games discussion to a new topic called: "RPG and PC games based on DUNE: A sad future." ?

I would be grateful.

[SandRider]

Now I will loose all the respect I tried to keep (even after being banned by the DN forum). Read it very well, Byron:

FUCK YOU, HLP!

Yess, yesss, Usul .... come to the Dark Side .....
We stand beside you ,,,,,,,


lemme change hats here ...

I wasn't only talking about you Dukester. You may have started the comments on "your" and "you're" but someone else picked them up and ran with them.. I think it was SandRider. Picking on him for using shitty grammar and spelling is alright, but it was pounded into the ground. That's all I was saying. Then, I read a post saying that he couldn't get any p---- or some such sh*t, and I was kinda taken aback

Yes ma'am, that was me, I do apologize, not to Simon, of course, but to you. I do get a little
carried away in my mean-drunk rants, and while I sometimes don't remember them until I read them
in the morning, I am nevertheless responsible. At least that's what the Judge said. These boys around
here get a little rowdy sometimes, and I'm guilty of followin' on in where I know I ought'nt. Sometimes
forget there are Ladies Present, and need my face slapped from time to time. I beg your forgiveness
if not your understanding, and promise to watch my filthy tongue in the future.

[cmsahe]

We should be ever so concerned that the number of idiots(i.e KJA asskissers) outnumber those with good sense.

After all, we see how many SW and ST fans are out there, and we know how good those franchizes are.

I love Star Trek! Remember that the OS had a team of real SF writers.

[Simon]

Dune is about my entertainment first and foremost.

This point I agree with - FH said it himself. But there's more...

If you want to get anything across, you have to be entertaining first. If you start standing on a street corner, people will tune you out. We human beings tend to have very good filter systems in our heads to see and hear only what we want to see. But analogues give you a marvellous device for getting past that screening system, because people can be caught up in the drama of the story, be deep into the problems of it. Then later on, much later on, they say, Oh, my God, he was talking about this!" And they come out of it with a brand new view of what's happening in their world.

( http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/ch01.html )

This is one of the reasons why Dune is brilliant.

Is it unnecessary?

Frank had a way about him. I know some of you say there are comparable authors but I've never read anyone's writing I liked so much.
No one comes close in my book.

I am definitely aware of the many layers but still have yet to really "experience" them all. I'm still at that point where I still notice new things with every read through, a big reason for my favor of FH.

I'm a visual sort of person, I focused more one the imagery early on, after the third time through or so I started noticing the little details that really elevated the books. After coming online I realized that there was even more still for me to discover (and so many interpretations!). Really an amazing writer.

[Simon]

We've all been dicks at some time or another.

Exactly, which is why I don't take it personally.

[Simon]

... so if it makes you feel better I think you were being a bit of an asshole to Simon.

Oh, hell, I was being an asshole to him in at least every-other post.

My "cherry-picking" comment was global, BTW, not directed at anyone in particular. It's probably a phenomenon that happens at all forums.

I've asked myself in this last hour, "What made you [meaning myself] want to go toe-to-toe with Simon like that?" At first, nothing came to me, but in re-reading the thread, I think I know what happened: I wasn't too fond of seeing a two-week old thread bumped with the same old "Since you guys didn't heckle KJA in Dayton, then all OHers suck" argument. For whatever reason, that got me going. I'm feeling much better, though.

And, yes, playing Grammar Police isn't very cool (or the best way to get chicks). So, for the record, I'll say that I was wrong on that point. Simon, I've edited all of that nonsense out; it was over-the-top and I apologize.

Thanks Duke, no big deal.

[Simon]

Duke: what size hat you wear, son ?
I've got some black Stetsons big enough to block out the sun.
(for the record, I piled on the spelling & grammar thing, too, and
personally attacked him for no other reason than I'm a grumpy
mean old bastard - not apologizing for that, mind you.)

As I said before, Simon's got heart or brain damage, one.
He can't carry out the argument, and that makes him an easy target.
In the long run, I think this has/will be good for him. Strikes me as one
of those timid little geeks that got picked on in high school. Maybe
he'll learn how to dish it back out instead of taking it all the time.
Good for him if he does. He can start right here.

I just can't get over the avatar. I can't. Tried. Can't.
Makes my skin crawl ....

Timid and little? (a geek, yes!) I used to bounce at clubs man, I'm not one of those ape guys but I can handle myself. Last guy who picked on me was in seventh grade, (and he was about a head taller than me) I beat the life out of him and used his own glasses to cut him up (back before shatter proof lenses). People don't mess with you after a thing like that

Please don't misunderstand, I feel bad about it now. It was waaaaaaay over the top but back in middle school it was eat or be eaten. Kids are cruel. Fortunately most of us grow out of that crap.

[SandRider]

Well, hello there, Son. How are you tonight ?
Been waitin' for you. Good to see you.

[SandRider]

I can't begin to tell you had sad that was.
Booty-bouncin' 'n' DA Club ??
(see how easy that was ?)

And seventh grade, well...

First off, Son, the last time you kicked somebody's ass
was THIS MORNING .... remember that.


{edit-forgot "ass" and somethin else. whatever.}
{edited to correct typos in the edit-thing}

[Simon]

We should be ever so concerned that the number of idiots(i.e KJA asskissers) outnumber those with good sense.

After all, we see how many SW and ST fans are out there, and we know how good those franchizes are.

I love Star Trek! Remember that the OS had a team of real SF writers.

I was reading William "the Shat" Shatner's "T.V Star Trek Memories" and was surprised at the credentials of the first two seasons writers. I hadn't realized so many heavy hitters had written for a "little" Sci-fi show like TOS.
Makes sense though, and the lack of most of them during season three also explains why the later episodes really came below the bar.

[Simon]

Well, hello there, Son. How are you tonight ?
Been waitin' for you. Good to see you.

Howdy SandRider.

[SandRider]

But it ain't necessary to TALK about ass-whippin. Ever.
Makes you look weak just all by itself.

Remember Sgt. Barnes in Platoon ?

Try somthin like that:
You boys talkin bout killin ? Ummhuh ? Y'all experts ?

[Simon]

I can't begin to tell you had sad that was.
Booty-bouncin' 'n' DA Club ??
(see how easy that was ?)

And seventh grade, well...

First off, Son, the last time you kicked somebody's
was THIS MORNING .... remember that.

Oh I restrain myself these days, nothing but trouble. Haven't bounced since '05 (the Funnybone in Newport KY), also nothing but trouble (Once you almost get torn apart by 200 some angry drunks you tend to ask yourself questions, like "Is this REALLY the work for me?).

[SandRider]

Awright then, it's obvious we just gonna post over each other,
and you aint gonna listen to the Old Dog.
(I like that, by the way. Think I'll keep it)