"New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

[lotek]

hopefully I'll worm my way back

[SandChigger]

Elvira lightning women

Love it!

He meant an "self-introductions" area, btw.

[lotek]

Elvira lightning women

Love it!

He meant an "self-introductions" area, btw.

crap i've done it again haven't I, that doesn't count as using a french word though

[SandChigger]

that doesn't count as using a french word though

WRONG! IT'S WORSE!

YOU ARE GUILTY OF ... FRENCH THOUGHTCRIME!!!

[Nekhrun]

I'm sorry for your experience.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Welcome! Nice entrance.

[A Little Galach]

I am well into GEoD and while I've picked up on several of the inconsistencies that others have mentioned, I noticed one that I have not seen mentioned.

In GEoD Leto mentions Norma Cenva and Aurelius Venport was credited with creating/inventing guildships. Leto mentions how Norma actually invented them but AV got the credit, this caused AV to basically of despair and a broken heart or some bullshit. They had 5 kids and yadayadayada.

Notice it says he died of heartache or despair or some such depression nonsense. This is pulled from OM and supposedly pretty reliable. Unless it's in one of the later books, nowhere does FH say AV is killed when a white-haired lightning-woman overloads her circuits in order to fend off an aggressive-but-benign brain-in-a-jar whose spaceship is cleverly disguised as an asteroid and was also a decisive part of several conflicts in the Butlerian Jihad.

And Leto says again in GEoD how the Baron was fat for obnoxiousness' sake, not as a result of a BG-inflicted STD. Again, I assume Leto would mention that at some point, you know, since he gives the BG shit for everything else.

[A Thing of Eternity]

While I agree that this is BS - it could be explained away by saying that the OM was from someone not actually privy to the truth, the person was maybe under false impressions of what had happened.

Just playing the devil's advocate though.

[SandChigger]

While I agree that this is BS - it could be explained away by saying that the OM was from someone not actually privy to the truth, the person was maybe under false impressions of what had happened.

Just playing the devil's advocate though.

EXCEPT that he "lived" Norma. Which means he also lived Aurelius and would have the memories of both until the conception of whichever of the five children was his ancestor. (And that's ignoring the possibility of interbreeding further down the line of descendants of more than one of the children.)

He would have "lived" that child as well, and known whatever they knew about the deaths of their parents. I'd have to go back and look through the trash (McDune Legends) to see if Norma & her brood ever learn of Aurelius & Zufa's fate; I honestly don't recall at the moment. If they do, inconsistency: they'd know he was killed by the evil machine enemy. If they don't, inconsistency: why then does Leto portray his end as anything but a mystery?

[A Thing of Eternity]

Ah, I'd forgotten that - been a while since GEoD for me! Thanks Chig.

[SandChigger]

I exist to serve... nice bikkies and little cups of spice tea. Another cuppah, dearie?

[Nekhrun]

I was slumming it in some old threads on DN today and found this one I posted about Paul of Dune that could be added to the list. It generated quite a bit of discussion. The thread itself is a great example of how preeks and Byron like to argue. http://forum.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/view ... 3243#63243" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For a good time, it's worth reading all 3 pages. This was the initial post though:

I found this interesting:

A second son would come, however. There would be another Leto, but that, too, carried heavy consequences, especially for Chani.

This seems to imply that Paul used his prescience to see a baby God Emperor; but I'm pretty sure in my copy of Dune Messiah it says that Paul didn't know about little Leto part II.

This seems like a pretty big deal as it seems to shake up Paul when it happens in DM. I'm throwing it in this year's edition of Nekhrun's Notes soon available at a discussion board near you.

[Freakzilla]

I was slumming it in some old threads on DN today and found this one I posted about Paul of Dune that could be added to the list. It generated quite a bit of discussion. The thread itself is a great example of how preeks and Byron like to argue. http://forum.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/view ... 3243#63243" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For a good time, it's worth reading all 3 pages. This was the initial post though:

I found this interesting:

A second son would come, however. There would be another Leto, but that, too, carried heavy consequences, especially for Chani.

This seems to imply that Paul used his prescience to see a baby God Emperor; but I'm pretty sure in my copy of Dune Messiah it says that Paul didn't know about little Leto part II.

This seems like a pretty big deal as it seems to shake up Paul when it happens in DM. I'm throwing it in this year's edition of Nekhrun's Notes soon available at a discussion board near you.

How the fuck did I miss out on that conversation? Must have been banned.

[SandChigger]

Ugh. Read the first page but that was enough. Any discussion in which that halfwit arnoldo is involved is just a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

[Omphalos]

Byron's first comment was stupider than anything 'nards said.

[SandChigger]

And Lundse properly bitchslapped him for it a few posts later.

[dunaddict]

Ok Nekhrun, added to the list. Also, I recently added a bunch of "mistakes" to the Winds of Dune section.

Please report more inconsistencies from the 'Legends' books or Hunters of Dune. I must have missed some, because I doubt our two favorite writers managed to 'write' Machine Crusade without a single mistake....

[Ampoliros]

Could this be KJA cleverly misinterpreting Paul's comforting of Chani with the fact that they would have more children in Dune? I'm pretty sure at that point in the book Paul is just saying it to comfort her, not predicting the fact that yeah, LETO is coming.

[SandChigger]

Actually, we really need to look at the actual quote from Dune and not rely on the mangled version posted in that DN thread by that asshat pickle fucker arnoldo:

The Emperor turned a stricken look upon his daughter. She touched his arm, spoke soothingly: "For this I was trained, Father."

He took a deep breath.

"You cannot stay this thing," the old Truthsayer muttered.

The Emperor straightened, standing stiffly with a look of remembered dignity. "Who will negotiate for you, kinsman?" he asked.

Paul turned, saw his mother, her eyes heavy-lidded, standing with Chani in a squad of Fedaykin guards. He crossed to them, stood looking down at Chani.

"I know the reasons," Chani whispered. "If it must be...Usul."

Paul, hearing the secret tears in her voice, touched her cheek. "My Sihaya need fear nothing, ever," he whispered. He dropped his arm, faced his mother. "You will negotiate for me. Mother, with Chani by your side. She has wisdom and sharp eyes. And it is wisely said that no one bargains tougher than a Fremen. She will be looking through the eyes of her love for me and with the thought of her sons to be, what they will need. Listen to her."

Jessica sensed the harsh calculation in her son, put down a shudder. "What are your instructions?" she asked.

"The Emperor's entire CHOAM Company holdings as dowry," he said.

"Entire?" She was shocked almost speechless.

"He is to be stripped. I'll want an earldom and CHOAM directorship for Gurney Halleck, and him in the fief of Caladan. There will be titles and attendant power for every surviving Atreides man, not excepting the lowliest trooper."

That's obviously not a prophecy at all. Nor spoken to comfort Chani since he's not even speaking to her when he says it.

Never trust those motherfuckers at DumbNovels to be able to read anything, even a grocery list.

If that's the passage KJA based the PoD bullshit on, then he's as fucking stupid and reading-challenged as the rest of them.

[inhuien]

Christ on a bike, analysing their books is akin to dissecting Monkey shite to see if it had nuts for lunch. And here was me thinking Mr. Tegs recent thread plumbed the depths.

[merkin muffley]

I think KJA and BH just threw in this reference to Leto II. It's just one of many examples of how thoughtless their writing is in general, which is incredible to me, because they're writing novels that they know are going to be (and SHOULD be) compared to Dune. They deserve all the scorn that they get.

This post from Byron, the Big Pussy of Doom, was really obnoxious (he's basically responding to the idea that the worst-case scenario would be that Paul of Dune simply contradicts Dune and Dune Messiah, without any real explanation):
"Worse according to you and the other OHers. But not so for those who enjoy PAUL OF DUNE, including Library Journal, Booklist, and Publisher's Weekly, some of the top rated review sources in the nation."

It should be considered worse by all standards because the book is supposed to fit between Dune and Dune Messiah, unless your position is: "screw Dune and Dune Messiah." In a way he's actually suggesting that the inconsistencies don't matter to people who like Paul of Dune because they don't care about the original Dune books, and prefer the universe created by the prequels. That cheesy, stupid-ass universe where they tell the reader, for 300 pages, what they should think, about an endless list of plot events.

Speaking of reviews, here's one I came across a little while ago by Luke Burrage (he gets to PoD around 6:55). Forgive me if this is old news, and everyone is already aware of this particular podcast. I certainly don't agree with everything this guy says, but I like this review. I think he does a good job of explaining why KJA and BH's writing sucks a fart out of my asshole.

Oh, and at the end he explains why you should "never really go by Publisher's Weekly if you see their quotes on the back of a book."

http://www.sfbrp.com/?s=Paul+of+Dune&searchsubmit=Find" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I especially like the fact that someone from HLP established contact with Luke Burrage, and sought him out for this half-star review. (He also gave Hunters of Dune a half-star, but I guess they missed that over there). This is not a guy who has an agenda against McDune, he has opinions about bad writing (and Paul of Dune is some of the worst). This is just a guy who reads a lot of books, who was given a copy to review, by HLP (or some agent of KJA/BH), and was honest about how bad it is. However, KJA would probably accuses him of having an agenda. He's taken a political stance against shitty storytelling. I bet they won't send him a copy of Winds of Dune.

[SandChigger]

I think the HLP essentially decided to say "Fuck you" to all the fans who had supported the original books over the years but who wouldn't or couldn't go along with the poor writing or the mistakes/intentional changes in these shit excuses for novels in the same universe. They probably figured that KJA would bring in enough new "fans" of a certain calibre (cough cough) that either wouldn't notice or care about such details.

[A Little Galach]

I hate to temporarily stop the KJA bashing, but I am in Heretics now and Teg & Co are in the Harkonnen no-chamber. I don't remember it being mentioned in this thread before, but the chamber is described by two seperate parties (Duncan, Lucilla and Teg as well as Taraza and Burzmali) as being built during the Tyrant's time. I take this as pretty accurate since Lucilla and Teg have been reading the histories in the library, I would assume in the libraries that there would be mention of events AFTER the Baron's death which would preclude the chamber from having been forgotten upon his death.

Of course the Baron had the thing built in the prequels, with Piter and the Beast in attendance.


Also, Duncan is said to have been on Geidi Prime until age 16 in FH's book(s). It was about 13 in the prequels. And he scales the wall in GEoD because of his extensive experience on GP, but IIRC he only climbs once when he escapes in the preq's, otherwise he is in urban areas.

[SandChigger]

Leto reigned for 3,500 years. Heretics begins 1,500 years after his death. That's a total of 5,000 years from the beginning of his reign until the beginning of Heretics.

Leto began keeping his journals in the first year of his reign. At some point he learned of the Ixian development of no-tech or they approached him with it as a gift or product for purchase. It could be that the Harkonnens were commissioned the development and he learned of it, or the Harkonnens got wind of the new development and approached the Ixians and Leto allowed the Ixians to sell it to the Harkonnens as well, in order to drain their resources and keep them occupied.

However it played out, Leto had a no-globe/complex built on Arrakis at Dar-es-Balat, "The House of Tiles", and concealed his "Hidden Journals" there, with the Ixian machinery that recorded his thoughts. Above the door to the complex was an inscription saluting the future discoverer thereof as the first person to see his chronicles for four thousand years.

Now, I read this as meaning that the four thousand years refers to the age of the Dar-es-Balat complex. This means the four thousand years fits inside the five-thousand–year period I mentioned at the beginning, with one thousand years leeway which has to be divided between the periods before and after.

We know that Dar-es-Balat is discovered before the beginning of Heretics because the Bene Gesserit know of it and have incorporated some of the contents of the Hidden Journals into their traditions. This would no doubt require a couple hundred years or more. I've never been able to find anything in the texts that would help to pinpoint the exact dates, so I generally just think of Dar-es-Balat as having been built around 500 years into Leto's reign (it would have taken time for the Ixians to develop the no-tech and telepathic recording equipment) and as having been rediscovered about 500 years before the beginning of Heretics (giving the BG time to absorb and integrate the contents).

Just my interpretations and speculations offered as one possibility.

(In Winds the Ixians are already selling methods simulating telepathy [because KJA has to preempt FH with every kewl techy thang he can ... the House books no-tech being the prime example], so no doubt they're going to have Leto building the complex very early in his reign, if not immediately after he ascends to the throne. )

[trang]

The thing that gets me is they (being the jacket and fartblocker) have written Inter-quels, that are built around the smallest book of the original six. They cant for the life of brian, get anything right. They are complete and utter wastes of sperm.

Merritt's post was just about stupid?

Its like the line in the movie the Hangover, "your to stupid to insult"