Born on Kaitain? Putting this particular dog down for good

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 22 Apr 2008 00:03

Has anyone brought this one up before in this context:

FH in Dune Messiah (Ch. 22) wrote: Paul stood in darkness outside the sietch. Oracular vision told him it was night, that moonlight silhouetted the shrine atop Chin Rock high on his left. This was a memory-saturated place, his first sietch, where he and Chani...

I must not think of Chani, he told himself.

The thinning cup of his vision told him of changes all around—a cluster of palms far down to the right, the black-silver line of a qanat carrying water through the dunes piled up by that morning's storm.

Water flowing in the desert! He recalled another kind of water flowing in a river of his birthworld, Caladan.

This is Paul, thinking of Caladan as his birthworld.

Caladan, not Kaitain.

I suppose the explanation for this is that Paul had always been told he had been born on Caladan? That none of the servants or those loyal retainers-become-friends, nor even his own parents, had ever told him the truth?

Right.

Gee...I hope they remembered to retcon this away in the upcoming "Gyros of Dung" books.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 22 Apr 2008 00:26

BOOM. Slap the biatch again:

FH in DM (earlier) wrote: As she turned to go down to the meeting, she saw the letter where she'd left it on a table by the door: the latest message from their mother. Despite the special reverence held for Caladan as the place of Paul's birth, the Lady Jessica had emphasized her refusal to make her planet a stop on the hajj.

"No doubt my son is an epochal figure of history," she'd written, "but I cannot see this as an excuse for submitting to a rabble invasion."

Alia touched the letter, experienced an odd sensation of mutual contact. This paper had been in her mother's hands. Such an archaic device, the letter—but personal in a way no recording could achieve. Written in the Atreides Battle Tongue, it represented an almost invulnerable privacy of communication.

Thinking of her mother afflicted Alia with the usual inward blurring. The spice change that had mixed the psyches of mother and daughter forced her at times to think of Paul as a son to whom she had given birth. The capsule-complex of oneness could present her own father as a lover. Ghost shadows cavorted in her mind, people of possibility.

Note the emphasized bits.

1. At this point in time the populace is already thinking of Caladan as Muad'Dib's birthplace. Has Irulan already done her work?

2. If Jessica really wanted to keep the pilgrims away, she could have revealed that Kaitain was where he was born. Solidarity in the myth-making? A conspiracy extending beyond just Irulan?

3. Alia was conceived and born after Paul. She therefore has Jessica's memories of Paul's birth. Nothing here to indicate he was born anywhere but Caladan, although this would have been a perfect place for FH to bring it up. In fact, it seems addled of him NOT to bring it up, if he really intended Paul to have been secretly born on Kaitain, because Jessica and Alia are the two people who would know the truth better than anyone else in the Duniverse.

(Yeah, these are coming up because I'm looking for wood from Caladan.

)

Post by **Omphalos** » 22 Apr 2008 02:01

I suppose the explanation for this is that Paul had always been told he had been born on Caladan? That none of the servants or those loyal retainers-become-friends, nor even his own parents, had ever told him the truth?

Maybe they didnt tell Jessica either.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 22 Apr 2008 02:57

She was under a general anesthetic the whole time, I guess.

orald · Post by **orald** » 22 Apr 2008 03:06

Jessica was too high on pain killers at the time to notice what planet she was on, so she doesn't count.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 22 Apr 2008 05:12

This one does it for me:

The Duke looked at him. "This will be your first time off planet," he said.
"Yes, they're big. We'll be riding a Heighliner because it's a long trip. A
Heighliner is truly big. Its hold will tuck all our frigates and transports into
a little corner -- we'll be just a small part of the ship's manifest."

Duke Leto comments that their trip to Arrakis will be Paul's first time in space.

He didn't qualify it with, "that you remember" or "except for your actual birth".

It would be like the first time you let your kid stay the night at Granny's house, it's a big deal.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 22 Apr 2008 05:20

Yeah. I hadn't forgotten that one (which is fairly conclusive...although IIRC TAZ had some lame-ass rationalization or other for it), I was just looking for some new passages that hadn't been brought up (that I remembered).

To explain that, you would have to assume that Duke Leto was also in on the conspiracy to keep the truth from Paul.

But does that seem in character for Leto, to lie to his only son about something so inconsequential?

They either created it themselves out of whole cloth or misunderstood something in the Notes.

orald · Post by **orald** » 22 Apr 2008 08:33

Leto was too high on pain killers at the time to notice what planet he was on, so he doesn't count.

Pain killers can explain EVERYTHING!

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 22 Apr 2008 09:51

SandChigger wrote:Yeah. I hadn't forgotten that one (which is fairly conclusive...although IIRC TAZ had some lame-ass rationalization or other for it), I was just looking for some new passages that hadn't been brought up (that I remembered).

To explain that, you would have to assume that Duke Leto was also in on the conspiracy to keep the truth from Paul.

But does that seem in character for Leto, to lie to his only son about something so inconsequential?

They either created it themselves out of whole cloth or misunderstood something in the Notes.

At the time of the quotes you mentioned above, from Dune Messiah, Paul had all of his OM. Including that of Leto--so he would know first hand where the fuck he was born, hell he could probably watch it in his mind...Jeesh, can't wait to pay hard earned money for this comphrehensive "concordance" Brian was supposed to be publishing

Serkanner · Post by **Serkanner** » 22 Apr 2008 10:18

Let us not forget that Brian Herbert mentions in his biography "Dreamer of Dune" that Frank had named his boat Caladan after the planet where Paul Atreides was born. ( not raised but born ).

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 22 Apr 2008 11:22

orald wrote:Leto was too high on pain killers at the time to notice what planet he was on, so he doesn't count.

Pain killers can explain EVERYTHING!

Mastah B on board!

I thought about that, B, but I'm kinda up in the air about when the cut-off of shared parental memory comes. With the father, obviously it would be the moment of ejaculation, when the sperm leaves his body. But what about with the mother? With ovulation? The moment of fertilization by the sperm, when a new individual begins to form? Surely the mother's memories aren't recorded in the fetus until the moment of birth? (Know of any quotes relevant to this?)

So, possibly Paul would only remember up to the point of his conception.

What do you think?

Nekhrun · Post by **Nekhrun** » 22 Apr 2008 12:42

Serkanner wrote:Let us not forget that Brian Herbert mentions in his biography "Dreamer of Dune" that Frank had named his boat Caladan after the planet where Paul Atreides was born. ( not raised but born ).

That's a great one! Is that an exact quote?

Post by **Omphalos** » 22 Apr 2008 12:53

Sharing happens with physical contact. But I doubt that momma and foetus are "sharing" when the kid is floating in the goo. The last chance that a mother has to donate genetic material to offspring therefore is when the egg is produced, so I would say that the OM cut off from the mother occurs at oogenesis.

Post by **Omphalos** » 22 Apr 2008 12:55

bryanvdk wrote:and just to put the final nail in the hacks twain's coffin

from the terms appendix at the back of dune
CALADAN: third planet of Delta Pavonis; birthworld of Paul-Muad'Dib.

Chig, why dont you update the original post with a matrix of who contributed what evidence, and of course what the evidence is, so as to save us in the future from having to search this entire thread for all of our conclusions.

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 22 Apr 2008 13:06

SandChigger wrote:
orald wrote:Leto was too high on pain killers at the time to notice what planet he was on, so he doesn't count.

Pain killers can explain EVERYTHING!

Mastah B on board!

I thought about that, B, but I'm kinda up in the air about when the cut-off of shared parental memory comes. With the father, obviously it would be the moment of ejaculation, when the sperm leaves his body. But what about with the mother? With ovulation? The moment of fertilization by the sperm, when a new individual begins to form? Surely the mother's memories aren't recorded in the fetus until the moment of birth? (Know of any quotes relevant to this?)

So, possibly Paul would only remember up to the point of his conception.

What do you think?

Hmmmm, good point chig. Hard to say the point at which the OM would start. I formally withdrawal that line of evidence

But concur, of course, with the evidence as presented to this point

Post by **Omphalos** » 22 Apr 2008 13:23

Tleilax Master B wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
orald wrote:Leto was too high on pain killers at the time to notice what planet he was on, so he doesn't count.

Pain killers can explain EVERYTHING!

Mastah B on board!

I thought about that, B, but I'm kinda up in the air about when the cut-off of shared parental memory comes. With the father, obviously it would be the moment of ejaculation, when the sperm leaves his body. But what about with the mother? With ovulation? The moment of fertilization by the sperm, when a new individual begins to form? Surely the mother's memories aren't recorded in the fetus until the moment of birth? (Know of any quotes relevant to this?)

So, possibly Paul would only remember up to the point of his conception.

What do you think?
Hmmmm, good point chig. Hard to say the point at which the OM would start. I formally withdrawal that line of evidence

But concur, of course, with the evidence as presented to this point

Just for clarification of others (I see that you get this, B) we are talking about when OM of a parent ends, not when it starts.

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 22 Apr 2008 14:30

I must be missing something. Who the hell even said Paul was born on Kaitain? Like Baraka Bryan posted, it's in the Dune appendix. This has to be prequel shit or someone's lame assed fan fiction...sorry for repeating myself there

Post by **Omphalos** » 22 Apr 2008 14:58

GamePlayer wrote:I must be missing something. Who the hell even said Paul was born on Kaitain? Like Baraka Bryan posted, it's in the Dune appendix. This has to be prequel shit or someone's lame assed fan fiction...sorry for repeating myself there

Tweedeldum and Tweedeldumber, in one of the accursed House books.

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » 22 Apr 2008 16:18

Why did they change Paul's birthplace?

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 22 Apr 2008 16:26

Duh you guys, Paul is obviously a ghola of himself. The paul from the original books was born on caladan but dies in paul of dune (Oh sorry i should have said SPOILER), and his ghola is reborn from a clone-turned tank jessica in a hidden GRAND TEMPLE of the tleilaxu on Kaitain's main promenade.

this is also how he becomes the KH because the Tleilaxu decide to engineer him that way because they want to control the fremen armies with synthetic but super addictive spice. the delivery system is ingeniously hidden and dispersed through Paul's "interactions" with the spice orgy!

unfortunalty paul sees this through his spice trips and normalce tells him that it will bring about kralizec. so paul kills himself in chani's arms and tells her not to worry, there is a cylon resurrection shi... er axlotl tank temple in orbit and he'll see her again soon. Ghola Paul II arrives in time to distill his own corpse before Chani's Fedakin (Now called Immortals) guard notice the switch. Unfortuantly a cyborg of Feyd's daughter has foreseen paul's moves and show up at the distillery facility that is in a volcano! and they fight. Paul knocks Sirenoa (feyd's daughter named in reverence of both Serena Butler and Siona Atreides) into the distillery with his own corpse. He then drinks the water rather than put it in the windtrap (cause the fremen would know a murder had occured since the water had risen exactly one man-weight). Unfortunatly Omnius had forseen this and Ghola Paul II gets infected with nanites from drinking his water mixed with the cyborg water. In a nanite infected dream he encounters the downloaded mind of the evil Baron and defeats him in sado-masochistic mind games by saying "Hello Grandfather". He knows the only thing that can purge the nanites from him and prevent Omnius-Harkonnen from using him to kill chani (by impregnating her with twins when she has a weak uterus!) is the blast of a STONE BURNER! so paul arranges his own attempted assassination and then wanders out into the desert blind. he is rescued by the omnius worm and goes deeper into it's body than anyone ever before.

G-Paul II merges with the overmind and becomes THE PREACHER!!!!

end of Paul of Dune

now the retcon police have nothing to say.

Post by **Omphalos** » 22 Apr 2008 17:00

Mandy wrote:Why did they change Paul's birthplace?

Once the "fix" the original six books, this will no longer be an issue. Please ignore it for now.

chanilover · Post by **chanilover** » 22 Apr 2008 17:01

GamePlayer wrote:This has to be prequel shit or someone's lame assed fan fiction...

What's the difference?

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 22 Apr 2008 17:39

Omphalos wrote:Tweedeldum and Tweedeldumber, in one of the accursed House books.

I should have known better than to even ask. From now on I'm just going to assume everything stupid I hear is from the prequels. It's true 99% of the time anyway.

chanilover wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:This has to be prequel shit or someone's lame assed fan fiction...
What's the difference?

Indeed. That's why I made the "repeating myself" joke

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 22 Apr 2008 18:10

Um...this is in the Prequels/Sequels forum...d'uh.

About the Terminology entry:

The Terminologist is an inhabitant of the Duniverse...and any works he or she produced are therefore in-universe. That the Terminology mentions Muad'Dib shows that it was written or updated after Muad'Dib...which could mean it was influenced by Irulan's supposed myth-making efforts.

Anyway, the point is, it can be claimed by those so inclined that the Terminology reflects the character POV of the Terminologist...and therefore proves nothing.

Sorry...just pointing out their rationalizations.

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » 22 Apr 2008 19:22

Was it important to their story that Paul be born on Kaitain? Or was it just a mistake and instead of admitting it they got all huffy about it?