Bleh - you just want to be an ass pick a fight - so I am gonna ignore you....Serkanner wrote:You have been drinking to much from your "ignorance" bottle today haven't you. Or are you truly just THAT stupid?redbugpest wrote:Funny, but I thought I said I was still looking into OM, and how this could or could not be the case. Where do you get the "forget how to" crap from what I said?Idahopotato wrote:
Ok so now you are assuming that a reference about Ghanima's grand parents, that can't be misinterpreted by context since the names are used together in the exact same sentence, is somehow inconsistent? So Ghani would reach back for a memory of her grand dad, the Baron, and then forget how to do it for her grand mother, and instead have to refer to some fake name inserted for secrecy purposes? Wow! I think I would rather argue with a Christian fundamentalist than this clown.
Never mind - I don't think I really want to see the logic train wreck you would have for it.
Jessica's mother
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Re: Jessica's mother
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Re: Jessica's mother
Pick a fight with you? Man I wish you would be run over by an eighteen wheeler, yes, but you are really not worth a fight. I like calling you names, yes, but that is just because you are so obviously too stupid to grasp anything about Dune ... even after 3+ readings.redbugpest wrote:Bleh - you just want to be an ass pick a fight - so I am gonna ignore you....Serkanner wrote:You have been drinking to much from your "ignorance" bottle today haven't you. Or are you truly just THAT stupid?redbugpest wrote:Funny, but I thought I said I was still looking into OM, and how this could or could not be the case. Where do you get the "forget how to" crap from what I said?Idahopotato wrote:
Ok so now you are assuming that a reference about Ghanima's grand parents, that can't be misinterpreted by context since the names are used together in the exact same sentence, is somehow inconsistent? So Ghani would reach back for a memory of her grand dad, the Baron, and then forget how to do it for her grand mother, and instead have to refer to some fake name inserted for secrecy purposes? Wow! I think I would rather argue with a Christian fundamentalist than this clown.
Never mind - I don't think I really want to see the logic train wreck you would have for it.
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- insidiom
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Re: Jessica's mother
i have always interpreted a BG's/pre-born's use of OM to be both voluntary and involuntary. they have access to those memories and the memories act as if they are sentient, at times; providing information (useful or not) to the individual. my understanding is that any of the characters who went through the agony would be able to find out any information they wanted, if they chose to.
what is the mohiam issue? is that the discrepancy between FH and KJA where Vladimir gets fat? (rape disease vs overindulgence)
i suppose i have more forum browsing to do?
or should i have just kept the browbeating going by saying that my paul of dune screen saver rules?
what is the mohiam issue? is that the discrepancy between FH and KJA where Vladimir gets fat? (rape disease vs overindulgence)
i suppose i have more forum browsing to do?
or should i have just kept the browbeating going by saying that my paul of dune screen saver rules?
"...no one. but the water tastes really bad; like ass and dirt.
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."
"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--FH
darkness loves bbq
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."
"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--FH
darkness loves bbq
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Re: Jessica's mother
That's the way I see it too. However, in the latter books RMs are only to explore OM with approval and guidance. It may have always been that way and just not mentioned.insidiom wrote:i have always interpreted a BG's/pre-born's use of OM to be both voluntary and involuntary. they have access to those memories and the memories act as if they are sentient, at times; providing information (useful or not) to the individual. my understanding is that any of the characters who went through the agony would be able to find out any information they wanted, if they chose to.
In times of need OM is forced and at all times ancestral personnas can offer advice.
The other side has posited that OM is merely memory and not actual fact, that memories can be distorted.what is the mohiam issue? is that the discrepancy between FH and KJA where Vladimir gets fat? (rape disease vs overindulgence)
Of course!i suppose i have more forum browsing to do?
I'd have kept that to yourself.or should i have just kept the browbeating going by saying that my paul of dune screen saver rules?
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Re: Jessica's mother
that's funny - I mentioned 3 times more as a self-effacing statement than bragging... maybe an "only" would have assisted in the clarity of my statement.redbugpest wrote:Like I said, there is no consistency as far as I can see. I am continuing to look into it, since OM interests me.SimonH wrote:sorry, but you are a clown. re-read the books. I'm up to my third time and I'm still picking up new stuff.redbugpest wrote:I'm not so sure. It seems like FH waffled between people just knowing, and needing to get the info from the memory ego of the person with the knowledge. Sometimes they "talk to these other persona's, and sometimes they seem to just "remember"SimonH wrote:are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? , sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their argumentsNekhrun wrote:Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?nampigai wrote: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?
I am still struggling with what the answer really is.
how do you think Ghanima knew that the Baron was her grandfather? Do you think she would really search out this information in her OM and not find out who her grandmother was - an equally interesting fact...
BTW, I have read the books more than three times and am still looking for answers to things I find in them, so I don't think you are an more and expert than I am..
it is sad that you have read these books so many times and can't grasp OM.
What is the most likely way that Ghanima knows who her great-grandfather is? Remember, she only has female ancestral memories. The quickest way to that fact is through her great-grandmother, who is quite sure of her own name.
“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” Albert Einstein
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Re: Jessica's mother
Ghanima was pre-born and had both male and female ancestral OM from consciousness.SimonH wrote:What is the most likely way that Ghanima knows who her great-grandfather is? Remember, she only has female ancestral memories. The quickest way to that fact is through her great-grandmother, who is quite sure of her own name.
The BG consider it abomination because the pre-born do not have their own indivdual persona or BG training to deal with OM.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Re: Jessica's mother
ok- that makes sense - Alia obviously had male OM too (the Baron)...Freakzilla wrote:Ghanima was pre-born and had both male and female ancestral OM from consciousness.SimonH wrote:What is the most likely way that Ghanima knows who her great-grandfather is? Remember, she only has female ancestral memories. The quickest way to that fact is through her great-grandmother, who is quite sure of her own name.
“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” Albert Einstein
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Re: Jessica's mother
FH "waffled" huh? Try reading Children of Dune again. There are clear reasons why Leto, Ghanima and Alia have very different experiences with OM.redbugpest wrote:I'm not so sure. It seems like FH waffled between people just knowing, and needing to get the info from the memory ego of the person with the knowledge. Sometimes they "talk to these other persona's, and sometimes they seem to just "remember"SimonH wrote:are they that stupid? wouldn't Ghanima know via OM? , sorry I'm trying to introduce too much logic into their argumentsNekhrun wrote:Don't they say that it's just a fake name for the breeding records?nampigai wrote: but....but..KJA and BH say that they pulled the plot about Mohiam out of Franks notes... if they say so it must be true, why would they lie?
I am still struggling with what the answer really is.
Maybe the reason you're "still struggling with what the answer really is" is because you need to read/re-read/understand FH's writings.
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Re: Jessica's mother
Females are vulnerable to dominant, malignant male personas because they are givers and males are takers.SimonH wrote:ok- that makes sense - Alia obviously had male OM too (the Baron)...Freakzilla wrote:Ghanima was pre-born and had both male and female ancestral OM from consciousness.SimonH wrote:What is the most likely way that Ghanima knows who her great-grandfather is? Remember, she only has female ancestral memories. The quickest way to that fact is through her great-grandmother, who is quite sure of her own name.
Ghanima overcame this through self-hypnosis.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Re: Jessica's mother
The real BG trick is blocking the male ancestral OM.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Re: Jessica's mother
And Englisk war his mither tingue.redbugpest wrote:I don't think you are an more and expert than I am..
He IS al-Lisan al-Ghabi!
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Re: Jessica's mother
He am is to am.redbugpest wrote:I don't think you are an more and expert than I am..
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Re: Jessica's mother
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Re: Jessica's mother
not that the thread started out this way........Freakzilla wrote:
However, in the latter books RMs are only to explore OM with approval and guidance. It may have always been that way and just not mentioned.
but if we are talking about the nature or accessibility of OM, or the lack thereof, could you agree that self-imposed restrictions are a non-issue (like how western religions have strict behavioral restrictions to avoid becoming corrupted by sin)? i cant argue that the BG always had a strict rule on unguided interactions with OM or not (i agree that in later books they didnt put up with that shit). ...this rule could have been created because voluntarily delving into OM without someone as a guide was dangerous. thats why i always had a spotter when i smoked salvia. shit's crazy. either way, this restriction doesnt apply to pre-born or KHs.
but this does not address the question regarding jessica knowing about mohiam.
i think jessica knew after the agony. early on, jessica was portrayed as a woman who did things her way. is it unreasonable to think that she wouldnt have gone looking for her mom in OM, once she was provided the opportunity? this would be nothing compared to unleashing the KH upon an unprepared universe.
"...no one. but the water tastes really bad; like ass and dirt.
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."
"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--FH
darkness loves bbq
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."
"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--FH
darkness loves bbq
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Re: Jessica's mother
yes, I always thought that the BG's COULD look into male ancestral other memory, but they did not dare due to the risk of being taken over. And the only reason they could block this, was having a strong personality of their own.Freakzilla wrote:The real BG trick is blocking the male ancestral OM.
Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment is often more potent. It can guide reaction whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them.
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Re: Jessica's mother
I think whe would have known instantly upon successfully transmuting the Water of Life who all her female ancesters were.insidiom wrote:not that the thread started out this way........Freakzilla wrote:
However, in the latter books RMs are only to explore OM with approval and guidance. It may have always been that way and just not mentioned.
but if we are talking about the nature or accessibility of OM, or the lack thereof, could you agree that self-imposed restrictions are a non-issue (like how western religions have strict behavioral restrictions to avoid becoming corrupted by sin)? i cant argue that the BG always had a strict rule on unguided interactions with OM or not (i agree that in later books they didnt put up with that shit). ...this rule could have been created because voluntarily delving into OM without someone as a guide was dangerous. thats why i always had a spotter when i smoked salvia. shit's crazy. either way, this restriction doesnt apply to pre-born or KHs.
but this does not address the question regarding jessica knowing about mohiam.
i think jessica knew after the agony. early on, jessica was portrayed as a woman who did things her way. is it unreasonable to think that she wouldnt have gone looking for her mom in OM, once she was provided the opportunity? this would be nothing compared to unleashing the KH upon an unprepared universe.
They were described as being links of sausages (Mmm... sausage... ), her mother would have been the very first one.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Re: Jessica's mother
Exactly, when Paul wants to look into his masculine OM, it is Jessica who shows him where it is.nampigai wrote:yes, I always thought that the BG's COULD look into male ancestral other memory, but they did not dare due to the risk of being taken over. And the only reason they could block this, was having a strong personality of their own.Freakzilla wrote:The real BG trick is blocking the male ancestral OM.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- insidiom
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Re: Jessica's mother
Freakzilla wrote:I think whe would have known instantly upon successfully transmuting the Water of Life who all her female ancesters were.insidiom wrote:not that the thread started out this way........Freakzilla wrote:
However, in the latter books RMs are only to explore OM with approval and guidance. It may have always been that way and just not mentioned.
but if we are talking about the nature or accessibility of OM, or the lack thereof, could you agree that self-imposed restrictions are a non-issue (like how western religions have strict behavioral restrictions to avoid becoming corrupted by sin)? i cant argue that the BG always had a strict rule on unguided interactions with OM or not (i agree that in later books they didnt put up with that shit). ...this rule could have been created because voluntarily delving into OM without someone as a guide was dangerous. thats why i always had a spotter when i smoked salvia. shit's crazy. either way, this restriction doesnt apply to pre-born or KHs.
but this does not address the question regarding jessica knowing about mohiam.
i think jessica knew after the agony. early on, jessica was portrayed as a woman who did things her way. is it unreasonable to think that she wouldnt have gone looking for her mom in OM, once she was provided the opportunity? this would be nothing compared to unleashing the KH upon an unprepared universe.
They were described as being links of sausages (Mmm... sausage... ), her mother would have been the very first one.
"...no one. but the water tastes really bad; like ass and dirt.
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."
"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--FH
darkness loves bbq
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."
"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--FH
darkness loves bbq
- nampigai
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Re: Jessica's mother
And Paul when talking to Mohiam in the end of “Dune” telling her “Try looking in that place where you dare not look! You will find me there, staring back at you!” That part have always made me wonder though. Did he say that as a matter of speech to tell that he had OM or could he actually get into her head? It’s been a while since I read Dune, but I do remember that Mohiam in the movie yells “get out of my head!” I don’t exactly recall if it was in the book or not?
In Ghanima’s case I believe she had Chani “sitting” at the gate, saving her from the fate of Alia. And I believe Leto II cut of a deal with the "stronger" personalities in his OM, that "they" had a task! And Harum was their spokesman. Jebus, when I'm done with the books I can start all over again.
In Ghanima’s case I believe she had Chani “sitting” at the gate, saving her from the fate of Alia. And I believe Leto II cut of a deal with the "stronger" personalities in his OM, that "they" had a task! And Harum was their spokesman. Jebus, when I'm done with the books I can start all over again.
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Re: Jessica's mother
I think he was telling her that he was the KH.nampigai wrote:And Paul when talking to Mohiam in the end of “Dune” telling her “Try looking in that place where you dare not look! You will find me there, staring back at you!” That part have always made me wonder though. Did he say that as a matter of speech to tell that he had OM or could he actually get into her head?
"That child is an abomination!" the old woman said. "Her mother deserves aIt’s been a while since I read Dune, but I do remember that Mohiam in the movie yells “get out of my head!” I don’t exactly recall if it was in the book or not?
punishment greater than anything in history. Death! It cannot come too quickly
for that child or for the one who spawned her!" The old woman pointed a finger
at Alia. "Get out of my mind!"
I don't think this had anything to do with OM, Alia seemed to have some kind of TP ability... which FH never mentions again. Unless you count Paul using Leto II's infant eyes in the end of DM.
At first, but latter she blocked off all OM through hypnosis.In Ghanima’s case I believe she had Chani “sitting” at the gate, saving her from the fate of Alia.
That was how he kept control at first but eventually he had to integrate all of those ancestral personas into his own and he became a composit of them all.And I believe Leto II cut of a deal with the "stronger" personalities in his OM, that "they" had a task! And Harum was their spokesman. Jebus, when I'm done with the books I can start all over again.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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Re: Jessica's mother
Sorry for not quoting, but my browser have some problems when the text box is full.
I think you’re right about the part where Paul tells Mohiam he’s the KH. It has always made me wonder though, if he could use TP.
You’re right that it was Alia who was “in” Mohiams head. It was all blurred in my head.
As for Leto II I don’t fully agree, I think even tough he “is” everyone within his OM, it is still Leto who is at the steering wheel.
When he weeps over Hwi after he first met her (the part where the one Fish Speaker says "The sins of the universe would trouble anyone.") he’s having a “discussion” (or that’s how I read it) with his OM.
He’s eaten up by self-pity over the fact that he could never “be” with her. Leto II says to hell with the GP and they laugh at him and remind him, that they have a task to do – a “deal”! I read that like: “if you don’t do what we agreed upon, we will revolt!” Do I make any sense at all, I’ve had way too much coffee and been in meetings all day?
I think you’re right about the part where Paul tells Mohiam he’s the KH. It has always made me wonder though, if he could use TP.
You’re right that it was Alia who was “in” Mohiams head. It was all blurred in my head.
As for Leto II I don’t fully agree, I think even tough he “is” everyone within his OM, it is still Leto who is at the steering wheel.
When he weeps over Hwi after he first met her (the part where the one Fish Speaker says "The sins of the universe would trouble anyone.") he’s having a “discussion” (or that’s how I read it) with his OM.
He’s eaten up by self-pity over the fact that he could never “be” with her. Leto II says to hell with the GP and they laugh at him and remind him, that they have a task to do – a “deal”! I read that like: “if you don’t do what we agreed upon, we will revolt!” Do I make any sense at all, I’ve had way too much coffee and been in meetings all day?
Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment is often more potent. It can guide reaction whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them.
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Re: Jessica's mother
Mine too. I just noticed last night it did the same thing on my friends computer.nampigai wrote:Sorry for not quoting, but my browser have some problems when the text box is full.
THAT is the deal he made with his ancestral personas. HE is their window onto the living universe and without him they wouldn't exist.I think you’re right about the part where Paul tells Mohiam he’s the KH. It has always made me wonder though, if he could use TP.
You’re right that it was Alia who was “in” Mohiams head. It was all blurred in my head.
As for Leto II I don’t fully agree, I think even tough he “is” everyone within his OM, it is still Leto who is at the steering wheel.
You're absolutely right.When he weeps over Hwi after he first met her (the part where the one Fish Speaker says "The sins of the universe would trouble anyone.") he’s having a “discussion” (or that’s how I read it) with his OM.
He’s eaten up by self-pity over the fact that he could never “be” with her. Leto II says to hell with the GP and they laugh at him and remind him, that they have a task to do – a “deal”! I read that like: “if you don’t do what we agreed upon, we will revolt!” Do I make any sense at all, I’ve had way too much coffee and been in meetings all day?
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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Re: Jessica's mother
You have to remember that the "ancestral personas" and "their memories" are two facets of OM. Not only can RMs/KH recall their ancestors memories in first person as if they had lived that life, they can also converse with that ancestor.
One of the things I found extremely interesting regarding OM was how Duke Leto and Baron Harkonnen were fighting in Leto II's OM:
He could feel the grit beneath him where he sat beneath a brilliant sky.
They had force-fed him another heavy dosage of melange, and Leto's mind turned
upon itself like a whirlpool. An unanswered question lay deep within the funnel
of the whirlpool: Why do they insist that I say it? Gurney was stubborn; no
doubt of that. And he'd had his orders from his Lady Jessica.
They'd brought him out of the sietch into the daylight for this "lesson." He
had the strange sensation that he'd let his body take the short trip from the
sietch while his inner being mediated a battle between the Duke Leto I and the
old Baron Harkonnen. They'd fought within him, through him, because he would not
let them communicate directly. The fight had taught him what had happened to
Alia. Poor Alia.
I was right to fear the spice trip, he thought.
One of the things I found extremely interesting regarding OM was how Duke Leto and Baron Harkonnen were fighting in Leto II's OM:
He could feel the grit beneath him where he sat beneath a brilliant sky.
They had force-fed him another heavy dosage of melange, and Leto's mind turned
upon itself like a whirlpool. An unanswered question lay deep within the funnel
of the whirlpool: Why do they insist that I say it? Gurney was stubborn; no
doubt of that. And he'd had his orders from his Lady Jessica.
They'd brought him out of the sietch into the daylight for this "lesson." He
had the strange sensation that he'd let his body take the short trip from the
sietch while his inner being mediated a battle between the Duke Leto I and the
old Baron Harkonnen. They'd fought within him, through him, because he would not
let them communicate directly. The fight had taught him what had happened to
Alia. Poor Alia.
I was right to fear the spice trip, he thought.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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Re: Jessica's mother
The whole OM / ancestral personas is just so screwed up - sometimes I think that old Frank suffered from shcizofrenia
as for the text box - I have the same problem at another forum using phpBB - I don't know if it's the latest version of ME that's the problem.
thanks mate - think I'm following you nowTHAT is the deal he made with his ancestral personas. HE is their window onto the living universe and without him they wouldn't exist.
as for the text box - I have the same problem at another forum using phpBB - I don't know if it's the latest version of ME that's the problem.
Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment is often more potent. It can guide reaction whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them.
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Re: Jessica's mother
No, it happens in XP on me and my buddy's machine. I think it's an IE thing.nampigai wrote:as for the text box - I have the same problem at another forum using phpBB - I don't know if it's the latest version of ME that's the problem.
ME? Seriously?
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman