"New Canon" inconsistencies....

[Tleilax Master B]

Time to quit jacking around, huh?

For archival purposes, let's start compiling the numerous inconsistencies between the new books and Frank's masterpieces. I'll start it off...

Let's begin with House Atreides:

In Dune we are told that Harmonthep is "supposed to have been
a no longer existent satellite of Delta Pavonis", yet it is mentioned several times in this book.

Piter is addicted to sapho juice in this crappy book, but that is never mentioned in Dune. In Dune he is a big time spice addict; which of course is never mentioned in House Atreides...

How the hell does everyone know that the Tleilaxu are religions fanatics when that isn't exposed until Heretics?

Ahhh, the famous Elacca wood conundrum. Elacca wood is described as "wood from Elacca"in this steamer. According to Dune, elacca wood comes from Ecaz. Pinky and the Brain have some explanation for this somewhere; can't be bothered to search for it now.

Ix is of course a confederacy, not ruled by "House Vernius"

In Dune it is said that it is generally known that Elrood "succumbed to chaumurky", yet in House A they go to great lengths to convince us that Shaddam and Fenrig did this unnoticed.

This one always bothered the shit out of me: "Fixing" a crysknife is explained as "keyed to the body of the owner so it would dissolve upon his death" in this steamer. In Dune "Fixed knives are treated for storage"--IOW exactly the opposite.

An interesting one according to alt.fan.dune: "House Atreides_ makes Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam out to be Jessica's mother. We know definitely that Frank Herbert did not intend this, as it was the only entry in _The Dune Encyclopedia_ he objected to. (Willis McNelly convinced him to let it be included as a joke.)"

Of course the whole Mohaim rape deal is WAAAAAYYY over the top. Apparently she infects him with a STD that makes him fat, when it clearly states in Frank's books:
He was a fat, monstrous..." "He was a seeker after sensations," Moneo said. "The fat was a side-effect, then perhaps something to experience for itself because it offended people and he enjoyed offending." ~~Leto II in GEoD.
There was yet some rigidity in his fat, but it was obvious to the eye that he'd come one day to the portable suspensors for carrying his excess weight.~~speaking of Rabban in Dune.
"Here's one who won't let himself go to fat"~~speaking of Feyd in Dune.

And of course, Alia starts getting fat when she is possesed by the Baron--so I guess STDs transfer through OM also

Also, in GEoD we are told that Duncan had a sister that was killed by the Harkonnens--where the hell is mention of her in this steamer?


OK, that gets it started. Keep adding to the list or start on another one of the prequels/sequels......

[SandChigger]

One small point to add:

Delta Pavonis is the sun of Caladan (= Delta Pavonis III), so Harmonthep and Caladan were in the same system.

[GodEmperorJason]

In House Atreides

The construction of the Harkonnen no-room in HOD - HOD firmly establishes that "the whole no-globe complex, some two hundred meters in diameter, was a fossil preserved intact from the time of the Tyrant."

Shaddam is crowned by a priest of Dur. However, Dur was a name given
to Leto II in the Scattering, several thousand years later


In House Harkonnen

Jessica is made Duke Leto's concubine and Dr. Yueh joins the Atreides
before Paul's death. However, more than fifteen years later, in Dune,
Jessica says that she has only known Yueh for six years

Gurney and Liet-Kynes meet and become good friends in House
Harkonnen. Yet when they meet again in Dune they don't recognize each other at all.

Kynes tells a smuggler "I am Liet-Kynes, son of Pardot Kynes". The
authors also claim that Liet was his sietch name. In that case it should
be kept secret from outsiders.

In Dune, Gurney calls Duke Leto "the man who rescued me from a
Harkonnen slave pit, gave me freedom, life, and honor". However, in
House Harkonnen he escapes the Harkonnens on his own.

According to House Harkonnen, the first time Duncan kills someone is
when he stabs Trin Kronos (a Moritani) in the back with his sword to
save his friend Resser. This takes place on planet Ginaz. In Dune, Duncan claimes to have first killed on Grumman.


House Corrino

In House Corrino, Paul is born on Kaitan. From the opening paragraph
of Dune: "Do not be deceived by the fact that he was born on Caladan
and lived his first fifteen years there."

[Tleilax Master B]

In House Atreides

The construction of the Harkonnen no-room in HOD - HOD firmly establishes that "the whole no-globe complex, some two hundred meters in diameter, was a fossil preserved intact from the time of the Tyrant."

Shaddam is crowned by a priest of Dur. However, Dur was a name given
to Leto II in the Scattering, several thousand years later


In House Harkonnen

Jessica is made Duke Leto's concubine and Dr. Yueh joins the Atreides
before Paul's death. However, more than fifteen years later, in Dune,
Jessica says that she has only known Yueh for six years

Gurney and Liet-Kynes meet and become good friends in House
Harkonnen. Yet when they meet again in Dune they don't recognize each other at all.

Kynes tells a smuggler "I am Liet-Kynes, son of Pardot Kynes". The
authors also claim that Liet was his sietch name. In that case it should
be kept secret from outsiders.

In Dune, Gurney calls Duke Leto "the man who rescued me from a
Harkonnen slave pit, gave me freedom, life, and honor". However, in
House Harkonnen he escapes the Harkonnens on his own.

According to House Harkonnen, the first time Duncan kills someone is
when he stabs Trin Kronos (a Moritani) in the back with his sword to
save his friend Resser. This takes place on planet Ginaz. In Dune, Duncan claimes to have first killed on Grumman.


House Corrino

In House Corrino, Paul is born on Kaitan. From the opening paragraph
of Dune: "Do not be deceived by the fact that he was born on Caladan
and lived his first fifteen years there."

Good ones. On the subject of the Harkonnen no-chamber, Chigger asked KJA about this in the infamous email interview, and his response was that this wasn't the chamber in Heretics, oh no, this was a completely different technology that was totally unrelated to the later no-chambers and no-ships

And on the Dur issue, its been noted that the god Abu d' Dhur, "Father of the Indefinite Roads of Time" is mentioned in Dune Messiah, but its a hell of stretch to think that "da boys" were referring to this......I guess we will find out when we all purchase the HUGE and comprehensive concordance that Brian has been working on.......

[Tleilax Master B]

One small point to add:

Delta Pavonis is the sun of Caladan (= Delta Pavonis III), so Harmonthep and Caladan were in the same system.

Good point. Hmmmm, so we don't actually know if it had been destroyed by then, and it is mentioned in Dune as one of the planets of the slave raids. Hmmmm, maybe not an inconsistency afterall?

[Freakzilla]

It was destroyed by the time of the events in Dune:

HARMONTHEP: Ingsley gives this as the planet name for the sixth stop in the
Zensunni migration. It is supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite
of Delta Pavonis.
~Dune, Terminology of the Imperium

[GodEmperorJason]

The Boyz tend to want us to forget Occam's Razor in their explainations of how their 'works' fit with FH's originals. Even with FH, the simplest explaination on balance tends to be the right one, yes FH had hidden meanings, but he didn't tell us something was purple when it was really pink.

No Chambers before Paul are a travesty to Leto's Golden Path, which had as one of its goals to spur Ix into inventing such technology. And don't say Leto couldn't have seen it already existed, Leto said himself he can tell the absense of something, and therefore such a continuous blind spot on Giedi Prime would have caught his attention. One's not a genius, the other's insane.

[SandChigger]

Good ones. On the subject of the Harkonnen no-chamber, Chigger asked KJA about this in the infamous email interview, and his response was that this wasn't the chamber in Heretics, oh no, this was a completely different technology that was totally unrelated to the later no-chambers and no-ships

Will have to check again to be completely sure, but I believe this has since been "canonized" in the Torkos Timeline on DN.

[SimonH]

No Chambers before Paul are a travesty to Leto's Golden Path, which had as one of its goals to spur Ix into inventing such technology. And don't say Leto couldn't have seen it already existed, Leto said himself he can tell the absense of something, and therefore such a continuous blind spot on Giedi Prime would have caught his attention. One's not a genius, the other's insane.

I thought this was trying to link up with the noship/nochamber that Teg used in Heretics/Chapterhouse(? it's been too long).

However I don't see any reason for it to have been invented earlier than Leto's time

[SandChigger]

Thanks for posting/bumping this one and reminding me:

10156 A.G.

Death of Elrood IX. Chobyn of Richese invents the no-field but shares his invention only with Vladimir Harkonnen. A no-globe is built on Giedi Prime. Chobyn is killed. Vladimir Harkonnen’s unsuccessful effort to cause warfare between House Atreides and the Bene Tleilax. Shaddam Corrino IV becomes Emperor. Shaddam IV marries Anirul Sadow Tonkin. Hasimir Fenring marries Margot Rashino-Zea. Shaddam places Fenring on Arrakis. Dominic Vernius and his followers go into hiding on Arrakis. [House Atreides]

???

Ixians reinvent the no-field, unaware of the similar invention of the richesian Chobyn. Leto II’s no-chamber is built at Dar-es-Balat, on Arrakis. [God Emperor of Dune]

We really should write Torkos and see if the version of the timeline that appears on Dune Novels is exactly as he perpared it, or whether it has been "edited" or "updated" since...if you know what I mean.

(The above is from the copy on my hard disk, btw.)

[Tleilax Master B]

Thanks for posting/bumping this one and reminding me:

10156 A.G.

Death of Elrood IX. Chobyn of Richese invents the no-field but shares his invention only with Vladimir Harkonnen. A no-globe is built on Giedi Prime. Chobyn is killed. Vladimir Harkonnen’s unsuccessful effort to cause warfare between House Atreides and the Bene Tleilax. Shaddam Corrino IV becomes Emperor. Shaddam IV marries Anirul Sadow Tonkin. Hasimir Fenring marries Margot Rashino-Zea. Shaddam places Fenring on Arrakis. Dominic Vernius and his followers go into hiding on Arrakis. [House Atreides]

???

Ixians reinvent the no-field, unaware of the similar invention of the richesian Chobyn. Leto II’s no-chamber is built at Dar-es-Balat, on Arrakis. [God Emperor of Dune]

We really should write Torkos and see if the version of the timeline that appears on Dune Novels is exactly as he perpared it, or whether it has been "edited" or "updated" since...if you know what I mean.

(The above is from the copy on my hard disk, btw.)

Hmmm, something stinks.....Wasn't this timeline actually published AFTER you did the email interview? I seem to remember that. Which almost certainly means the good Dr. was informed of the change and made the appropriate edits before it was put online.

Come on. Seriously. A no-technology is invented on Geidi Prime, and then its REINVENTED many years later by Ixians? That is so implausible, its just stupid.

And wouldn't Leto II know about this no-chamber already? Doesn't he have access to the Baron's OM? Puhlease........

[Phaedrus]

And wouldn't Leto II know about this no-chamber already? Doesn't he have access to the Baron's OM? Puhlease........

Depends. Was Jessica conceived already when the construction began?

[Omphalos]

Hmmm, something stinks.....Wasn't this timeline actually published AFTER you did the email interview? I seem to remember that. Which almost certainly means the good Dr. was informed of the change and made the appropriate edits before it was put online.

I contacted him for the first time right after the interview came back to us. At that point he said that the timeline was complete, but that he would not be releasing part of it until Sadworms came out. I have a copy that he e-mailed me right then if anyone wants to do a side-by-side.

[SandChigger]

The email interview took place last April. The revision of the timeline (with Sadworms content) was in August. I'll see later if I have an old copy of the timeline for determining whether any of this stuff was changed.

And wouldn't Leto II know about this no-chamber already? Doesn't he have access to the Baron's OM? Puhlease........

Depends. Was Jessica conceived already when the construction began?

The rape scene (the second impregnation, that resulted in Jessica) in House Atreides is at about line 5100 in my files, the scene with the Baron and de Vries in the no-chamber at about 7718.

I don't remember and can't find by searching any mention of Chobyn or a researcher from Richese before either of the above, so someone would have to go back through and reread the entire thing to try to determine the timing. On the face evidence, it looks like Jessica was conceived before the chamber was built, but some time would have elapsed between when Chobyn arrived and revealed what he had to offer and the chamber was constructed. Depending on HOW much time, the Baron could have known about it before the rape.

[SandChigger]

I contacted him for the first time right after the interview came back to us. At that point he said that the timeline was complete, but that he would not be releasing part of it until Sadworms came out. I have a copy that he e-mailed me right then if anyone wants to do a side-by-side.

Could you send me a copy, then? When you answer my other mail?

(I like how we're all referring to it as "Sadworms" now, ha ha!)

[Phaedrus]

The rape scene (the second impregnation, that resulted in Jessica) in House Atreides is at about line 5100 in my files, the scene with the Baron and de Vries in the no-chamber at about 7718.

I don't remember and can't find by searching any mention of Chobyn or a researcher from Richese before either of the above, so someone would have to go back through and reread the entire thing to try to determine the timing. On the face evidence, it looks like Jessica was conceived before the chamber was built, but some time would have elapsed between when Chobyn arrived and revealed what he had to offer and the chamber was constructed. Depending on HOW much time, the Baron could have known about it before the rape.

Even if they got it right, I doubt they thought about that. Just luck.

[Tleilax Master B]

I'm pretty sure that the rape occurred (which, of course, never occurred) and then the no- technology. So, yes, Jessica would have passed on the OM of the Baron, with that knowledge, to Leto II. But let's double check...

I would be interested Omph is getting a copy of the earlier timeline as well, please.

[SandChigger]

Well, you're the one used to venturing into powindah territory and then doing purification when you get back (What was that ritual called again? Sappho juice? Oh...sorry, wrong forum! ), so I volunteer you!


Just kidding. I'll try to have a quickie lookie tomorrow (=Friday) afternoon.

(Eew)

[Tleilax Master B]

Well, you're the one used to venturing into powindah territory and then doing purification when you get back (What was that ritual called again? Sappho juice? Oh...sorry, wrong forum! ), so I volunteer you!


Just kidding. I'll try to have a quickie lookie tomorrow (=Friday) afternoon.

(Eew)

Abasing yourself in Ghufran of course!

I'll take a looksie too.

[Omphalos]

Ill get it when I get home and e-mail it to whomever wants it.

[Tleilax Master B]

Here's a few I've collected for House Harkonnen. Please add others I missed (I'm certain there are many ):

-Perhaps the most infamous, supposedly the first time Duncan kills someone is when he stabs the Moritani named Kronos in the back. He’s trying to save Resser on the planet Ginaz. As we know from Dune:

“My sword was firs’ blooded on Grumman. Killed a Harkon….Harkon….killed ‘im f’r the duke.”

Some have argued that this doesn't mean its the first time he's killed, oh no, it just means the first time he got that particular sword bloody (which, of course, is utterly stupid).

-This one is a bit nitpicky, but, Dr. Yueh is described as a greedy man in this book. Although this quote seems to indicate otherwise in Dune:

Does greed touch even you, Wellington?

-In Dune "House Ginaz" is obviously a House in the Landsraad, in this steamer its run by an school of swordsman and no particuarly family seems to be in charge.

-Gurney says this of Duke Leto in Dune:

the man who rescued me from a Harkonnen slave pit, gave me freedom, life, and honor

But in this book he escapes all by himself!! He arrives as a stow away in a crate, but I hardly see how the Duke "rescued" him.

-How about Liet Kynes telling a smuggler "I am Liet-Kynes, son of Pardot Kynes"---the authors say that is his Sietch name, then shouldn't it be kept secret from outsiders? Of course, Gurney and Liet are buddies in this book and then have no recollection of meeting eachother previously when they meet in Dune--the authors try to explain that one off on their FAQ, but come on, we all know that doesn't make a damn bit of sense short of both of them being struck very hard on the head at some point.....

-Jessica says she has only known Yueh for six years in Dune--uhhh, that takes place fifteen years AFTER House Harkonnen. Ooops!! (Of course, its perfectly believable that a BG would forget 9 years or so, what with their terrible memory and all )


Those are a few I have saved........

[Freakzilla]

Did anyone get the list I posted at Arrakeen? It was in the Hunters forum I think.

[Tleilax Master B]

Did anyone get the list I posted at Arrakeen? It was in the Hunters forum I think.

There is an "inconsistencies" topic in the Hunters forum, but it doesn't really have a list. Just a couple of specific comments. Any other ideas where it might be??

[Tleilax Master B]

Found it Freak. I think we have most of the same ones. It was in the House Trilogies forum. Reposted as follows:

House Atreides:

The planet Harmonthep is mentioned several times in _House Atreides_.
However, in Dune we are told that Harmonthep is "supposed to have been
a no longer existent satellite of Delta Pavonis", indicating it was
destroyed long ago.

The construction of the Harkonnen no-room we see in _Heretics of Dune_
happens here. However, Heretics of Dune firmly establishes that "the
whole no-globe complex, some two hundred meters in diameter, was a
fossil preserved intact from the time of the Tyrant."

The Kwisatz Haderach breeding program is said to go back 10,000 years.
According to Dune it has gone on for 90 generations. That would work
out to 111 years per generation (the traditional figure is 20 [but this could be explained by the geriatric use of spice]).

Piter de Vries is addicted to sapho juice. This
is not mentioned at all in Dune, but much is, on the other hand, made of his addiction to spice (which House Atreides doesn't mention).

It appears to be general knowledge that the Tleilaxu are religious fanatics. So how come it is such a major revelation for the Bene Gesserit in _Heretics of Dune_ and is not known to any character in the Chronicles before that?

Elacca wood is described as "wood from Elacca". According to Dune, elacca wood (note lack of capitalization) comes from Ecaz. (After this was pointed out, the authors posted an "explanation" on their website.)

Crown Prince Shaddam and Count Fenring take great care to make sure no one discovers that Emperor Elrood has been poisoned. The Almanak en-Ashraf in Dune makes it clear that it was generally known that Elrood "succumbed to chaumurky".

House Vernius of Ix is a major player in all the prequels. However, Dune Messiah refers to the Ixian Confederacy, indicating no noble House ruled the planet.

cyborgs do not violate the tenents of the Butlerian Jihad. According to Chapterhouse: Dune, they do:

"Cyborgs?" [...] Didn't Idaho know the residue of revulsion left by the Butlerian Jihad even among the Bene Gesserit?

Cyborg was one of those potpourri words, too. Where did mechanical additions to human flesh become dominant? When was the Cyborg no longer human? [...] The Butlerian Jihad had left its indelible mark on humans. Fought and won . . . for then. And here was another battle in that long-ago conflict.

"Fixing" a crysknife is explained as "keyed to the body of the owner so it would dissolve upon his death". In Dune it's the other way around: "Fixed knives are treated for storage."

The Battle of Corrin is said to be the final battle of the Butlerian Jihad, fought by the "Bridge of Hrethgir". According to Dune it was a space battle that took place twenty years after the Butlerian Jihad was over.

House Atreides makes Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam out to be Jessica's mother. We know definitely that Frank Herbert did not intend this, as it was the only entry in The Dune Encyclopedia he objected to. (Willis McNelly convinced him to let it be included as a joke.)

- _House Atreides_: "He fired a near-invisible bolt of white-orange fire
from the lasgun..."
_Dune_: "Paul pointed to the violence above the distant cliff--the
jetflares, the purple beams of lasguns lacing the desert."
(The authors have corrected their error by _House Harkonnen_.)

Shaddam is crowned by a priest of Dur. However, Dur was a name given to Leto II in the Scattering, several thousand years later. A deity (?) Abu d' Dhur, "Father of the Indefinite Roads of Time", is mentioned in Dune Messiah.

One of the central plot points is the death of Leto's father, Duke Paulus. This happens before Jessica is born. However, in Dune, Jessica displays what can only be first-hand experience of the Old Duke.

We are told in that the Baron Harkonnen is so fat because he was infected with a disease. The Chronicles pretty much state that it was due to a hereditary disposition and overeating:

GEoD [of the Baron]: "He was a fat, monstrous..."
"He was a seeker after sensations," Moneo said. "The fat was a
side-effect, then perhaps something to experience for itself
because it offended people and he enjoyed offending."

Dune [of Rabban]: "There was yet some rigidity in his fat, but
it was obvious to the eye that he'd come one day to the portable
suspensors for carrying his excess weight."

Dune [of Feyd]: "Here's one who won't let himself go to fat."

Note also that when Alia is possessed by the Baron in Children of
Dune, she starts to put on weight.

According to God Emperor of Dune, Duncan had a sister who was killed
by Harkonnens. She is nowhere to be seen in House Atreides.

God Emperor of Dune also states that the Atreides rescued Duncan from Harkonnen bondage. The events in the prequel don't seem to match this description

House Harkonnen

Jessica is made Duke Leto's concubine and Dr. Yueh joins the Atreides before Paul's death. However, more than fifteen years later, in Dune, Jessica says that she has only known Yueh for six years.

Gurney and Liet-Kynes meet and become good friends yet when they meet again in Dune they don't recognize each other at all.

Kynes tells a smuggler "I am Liet-Kynes, son of Pardot Kynes". The authors also claim that Liet was his sietch name. In that case it should be kept secret from outsiders.

In Dune, Gurney calls Duke Leto "the man who rescued me from a Harkonnen slave pit, gave me freedom, life, and honor". However, in House Harkonnen he escapes the Harkonnens on his own.

Dr. Yueh is described as a greedy man. Contrast this quote from Dune: "Does greed touch even you, Wellington?"

has Ginaz ruled by an academy of swordmasters.
Dune clearly refers to the House of Ginaz.

the first time Duncan kills someone is when he stabs Trin Kronos (a Moritani) in the back with his sword to save his friend Resser. This takes place on planet Ginaz.

Dune [Duncan]: "My sword was firs' blooded on Grumman! Killed a Harkon . . . Harkon . . . killed 'im f'r th' Duke."

House Corrino

Paul is born on Kaitan. From the opening paragraph
of Dune: "Do not be deceived by the fact that he was born on Caladan
and lived his first fifteen years there."

[Tleilax Master B]

Here are a few I have for House Corrino. Some of these are more of a personal opinion than necessarily a true inconsistency....

-It’s revealed in this book that Axolotl tanks are impregnated females; yet tanks are a complete mystery to everyone until much later in the series (in fact, thousands of years later). I guess this goes along with the massive amnesia of humanity that the BT are religious fanatics also…..

-How is it that the BT make “artificial spice” (“amal”), but then completely lose this capability until thousands of years later in Heretics—in which they are making actual Melange? Furthermore, how do you produce something “artificial” or “synthetic” in a womb? The whole point of using a womb is to utilize the natural cellular meioses/mitosis that a womb normally facilitates to produce offspring through gametes.

-House Vernius “disappear” from Ix sometime after this and they are suddenly a Confederacy. House Vernius is of course never mentioned again.

-This isn’t an inconsistency per se, but its my own personal disbelief. IMO it’s questionable that the Guild would have allowed the transport of Moritani's and Rabban's attack force to Caladan, while supporting the Atreides liberation of Ix from the BT. That doesn’t really add up IMHO.

Then of course the whole Kaitain/ Caladan idiocy......