redbugpest wrote:I will take this opportunity to say that most of the folks here have met what my expectations were upon coming to this site. It's not the "Free and Open" site that some of the folks here would like to claim it to be, but rather the extremist orthodox collective that I expected to find. So far there has not been any room for any other explanation, and it is taken for granted that I must accept what is posted here as Gospel.
Zoinks! I knew he was too smart for us! If it hadn'ta been for this meddling kid, we coulda kept this up forever!
Schu wrote:Sadly, this is not the first time I've seen someone turn "you must justify your views" into "you're all closed-minded".
It has fastly grown into an overused cliché, no doubt. Do you think we should keep a score?
"The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand." - Frank Herbert
“This tutoring is dialectical. Literature makes us better noticers of life; we get to practice on life itself; which in turn makes us better readers of detail in literature; which in turn makes us better readers of life. And so on and on.” - James Wood
Freakzilla wrote:It has depth that you can explore further each time you read, it is intelligent and forces you to use your imagination.
That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection. FH, Intro to Eye
Writing to the lowest common denominator is KJA's career.
Something we can agree on!
Exactly what are you agreeing on? Because that can be read that you agree KJA's work is not as....indepth as Frank's. Or are you agreeing that Frank was a writter who challenged his readers to think and imagine. To use there minds. To explore the posibilities?
Please expand on your statement if you would please.
That Frank was a writer who challenged his readers to think and imagine.
I missed the snarky KJA comment at the bottom of his post as i was in a hurry move on other RL items.
I will take this opportunity to say that most of the folks here have met what my expectations were upon coming to this site. It's not the "Free and Open" site that some of the folks here would like to claim it to be, but rather the extremist orthodox collective that I expected to find. So far there has not been any room for any other explanation, and it is taken for granted that I must accept what is posted here as Gospel.
Kinda sad that you wrote that in a response to the nicest and most open person on this entire board.
There is lots of room for explanations, I'm still waiting for yours in several threads and look forward to seeing what you come up with, because I believe the only arguments are "oh shut up, that doesnt matter, just enjoy the action scenes" and really extreme additions to what is actually writen in order to make up for the mistakes.
What do you think about KJA's strengths and weaknesses compared to Frank's?
redbugpest wrote:I will take this opportunity to say that, as a troll, I knew I would be met with ardent skepticism prior to joining a board of fans so devoted to Frank Herbert and so critical of Kevin J. Anderson. I also knew many would recognize me from my ongoing insults toward them at various other internet sites. So, as a troll, I decided my goal wouldn't be to earn their respect through genuine intercourse, but to waste nary a single post before launching into petty insults at the very first sign of their criticism. So far there has not been any room for my victimized shtick to work and it has become apparent that even the nice folks have lost patience, accepting that I am a troll beyond reproach as Gospel.
I've got an erection for you like you wouldn't believe. ASL?
"They can chew you up, but they gotta spit you out."
I don't think so, but he posted some "provocative" photos
in the member's gallery quite awhile back that Luv can't
seem to get out of his mind ....
{not that there's anything wrong with that ....}
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
another dead thread that i wanted to post on....curse my gimpy timing.
a very personal topic. i cant tell if the person who created the topic was being sincere, but i will take the opportunity to share:
i keep going back to dune (and god emperor) because they are, what i consider, to be nearly perfect works of science fiction (or literature). i never went to college, so the majority of my knowledge of literature is reduced to cherry comics and star wars technical manuals. dune is one of the most complex and multi-layered books i have ever read.
ive found many of FHs observations about humanity (in general) and all it's pros/cons, when spoken through the words of his characters, are immediately applicable to my daily life. i quote dune characters almost every day (much to the continued irritation of my wife), and because of FHs ability to express nuance and dual meanings of words and phrases (as well as situations), i always try to look beneath the surface of everything and everyone.
dune taught me about patience, respect, and kindness; that the greatest men and women usually have the greatest burdens and responsibilities--the fastest and easiest path is almost always the most ruinous. in humanity's context, there is no extreme good and evil and everyone exists on the good/evil spectrum, motivating one other to do good or evil. life truly is an existential journey full of obstacles to overcome and decisions to make. gods are created and worshiped because people want to believe in something more powerful than they are, then beg that something to help them through their hard times when they dont have the strength. we are all "vectors" in the grand life cycle until we collectively kill ourselves.
i believe everything in dune was a metaphor that FH was using to speak to us about who we are, where we come from, and what we are capable of doing if we dont "snap out of it" and "get our shit together". the greatest thing that dune taught me, i have to be completely frank (no pun intended), was love. after reading FHs afterword to chapterhouse, i wanted to die inside. to this day, i have never heard anyone express love and loss in such a profound way. its one of the reasons why i try to live every day to the fullest, appreciate what i have, those who love me, and remind myself to tell my wife how grateful i am for her and our baby girl. leto II also taught me this. love and the consequences of a solitary life--which is a struggle for me.
to me, this is the golden path: giving up the ridiculous, meaningless shit you think you desire/deserve and truly work to make this world a better place for those around you and those yet to come; using your knowledge of the past to avoid making similar mistakes in the present while doing your best to be mindful of how your actions/decisions affect not only your future, but those around you.
im not sure if FH meant for the golden path to be something inside his world. i think he meant it to be in ours.
these are a few reasons why i continue to read these books over again and eventually share the experience with my child. to me, its not about lasers, ships, or power, dune is about all of us. one of the feelings that i believe i share with most of the people here is a reverence for how these stories, and FH, have impacted my life in many ways. that is why i am able to empathize with some of the most abrasive dune fans.
lastly, while typing this out, ive reminded myself of a review i made of one of the dune 7 books. i commented that holding KJA and BH (i have to say both because i still have trouble coalescing how their writing process works) up to the same standard was unfair since FH was such a badass. a responder said that he disagreed with it and i wasnt entirely receptive at first. having given this topic some thought and "putting it to paper", ive decided to 180 my original claim and agree with that person. i now believe that achieving that standard is highly improbable. as improbable as ludicrous speed.
and thats my opinion.
"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--Frank Herbert
"...no one. but the water tastes really bad; like ass and dirt.
i dont suggest that anybody drink the water from their suits. it tastes really bad."
"that it does."
"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--FH
insidiom wrote: ...after reading FHs afterword to chapterhouse, i wanted to die inside. to this day, i have never heard anyone express love and loss in such a profound way..
That hit me pretty hard too. The only other thing I've read that equalled it was Bill Ransom's introduction to the final book in the Pandora Saga, which Frank left mostly up to him to write because he died shortly after they had worked out the outline. Very deeply touching.
insidiom wrote:"A man is a fool not to put everything he has, at any given moment, into what he is creating."--Frank Herbert
Great quote.
It doesn't matter that the goal is impossible, it's the attempt you make that's important. Doing something half-assed just because failure is a given should not be acceptable.
the greatest thing that dune taught me, i have to be completely frank (no pun intended), was love. after reading FHs afterword to chapterhouse, i wanted to die inside. to this day, i have never heard anyone express love and loss in such a profound way.
Glad you noticed this. Love seems to be (one of) the main theme(s) of Chapterhouse: Dune.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
the greatest thing that dune taught me, i have to be completely frank (no pun intended), was love. after reading FHs afterword to chapterhouse, i wanted to die inside. to this day, i have never heard anyone express love and loss in such a profound way.
Glad you noticed this. Love seems to be (one of) the main theme(s) of Chapterhouse: Dune.
Heretics, too.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus. ~Pink Snowman
the greatest thing that dune taught me, i have to be completely frank (no pun intended), was love. after reading FHs afterword to chapterhouse, i wanted to die inside. to this day, i have never heard anyone express love and loss in such a profound way.
Glad you noticed this. Love seems to be (one of) the main theme(s) of Chapterhouse: Dune.
Heretics, too.
I thought that as well, but couldn't remember well enough to be sure. Since the Golden Path is established, one of the remaining things to re-instil into humans was love, especially in the Bene Gesserit. (Although, it took me more than one reading to notice the importance of that theme; love is such an ambiguous concept).
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
