posts that I think should be deleted at DN

[GamePlayer]

Maybe if it wasn't such a cesspool of personal attacks - particularly against people who aren't allowed to defend themselves and are mocked no matter what they say, that wouldn't happen.

Oh, that's the height of hypocrisy coming from a person who "argues endlessly no matter what people say to her"

[SandChigger]

Bel Moron has gone on the linguistic warpath again. With even more amusing results than last time.

In his "Sandworm gingerbread men just like Mao used to make!" thread:

Ru guo ni she bu kai wo zhao jia bie len! Cao ni ma zhong wen xie xie xiaobu yuan jia pei zhing xia xiaong tao shen.

OK ... there's a reason the Chinese don't write Chinese in the Roman alphabet like this: it's fucking impossible to read and make sense out of without context. But some things stand out, and there are regular patternings.

Ruguo [if] ni [you] she [???] bu-kai [=bu-hui? not able (to do)?] wo zhao [I search?] jia [house?] bie [not?] len [???]. Cao ni ma [fuck your mother] Zhongwen [Chinese (language)] xie-xie [thank you] ... the rest is even more impenetrable gibberish. Without seeing the characters, who knows?

The one thing I'm fairly sure of, though, is that the little shit probably doesn't speak Chinese better than I do.

In the next post in the same thread:

Mao is Japanese for Satan and they're even spelled with the same Chinese character.

Wrong. Ma Ô (or Ou) is Japanese for "Demon King". There's an unfortunate little matter of vowel length. And the characters are completely different:



At the end of the same post:

xien ma?

That's incorrect for the PinYin Romanization he's trying to use; should be xian. It would be a verb (or adjective?), followed by the sentence-final question particle ma. "Do you (something-or-other)?"

Who knows. Anyway, he's not content to fuck with Chinese, he has to mess with Japanese as well, over in another thread:

dunenovels.com Forum Index » Characters of Dune » Which is your favorite Atreides From Dune Classic?

I locked onto his little nuggets of thought before most chapters, they almost reminded me of Haiku.

Haiku is sooo much fun to do! I know Japanese and I've made a few and it works much better in their language than ours... Here's one I made about my ex while I was with her.

Kodomo no yo
bukiyo to kawaii
kanojo ga ii
(Translation: In touch with her childhood; clumsy and cute; good girlfriend) of course in English it doesn't match the 5-7-5 rule of Haiku

And here's one I made after we broke up lol
kono ama yo
boku wa bakadatta
ama o aishita
(Translation: That bitch; I was an Idiot; I loved a bitch)

Oh. Dear.

As he points out (and I'm sure you all know) a haiku is 5-7-5. His first is 5-9-6. That damned pesky vowel length thingy again. Broken down:

Ko-do-mo no yo
bu-ki-yo-u to ka-wa-i-i
ka-no-jo ga i-i

"It's a child's [you know]! (or: World of children)
[He/She is] cute when clumsy.
A girlfriend is good. (or: I choose her/that one!)"

[Edit: Most probably, in that first line he meant something like kodomo no you ni "Like a child...". —SC 17.10.2010]

ko-no am-a yo
bo-ku wa ba-ka da-t-ta
a-ma wo a-i-shi-ta

5-8-7 ... Still hasn't quite gotten the hang of it. But at least the translation isn't so far off this time. (Or, maybe, it's clearer what he's trying to say?)

"You damned bitch!
I was an idiot.
I loved a bitch."

And lest you think he's one that knows when to stop!

Dune wa kanoshii
Dune ga kenka wa dame
Daijoubu mashou!

Translation:
Dune is exciting
Lets not fight about dune
lets give it a break!

--Brian aka Bel Moulay

Um ... wow. I've been studying and speaking Japanese for about 24 years, and have lived over here for almost 22 now, and I have never seen nor heard "kanoshii". Kanashii (sad), yes. Tanoshii (fun), yes. But nothing like what he has written meaning "exciting".

The second line isn't even grammatical. Dyuun wa kenka ga dame would mean "Fighting/arguments are a no-no on Dune" ... but that's not what he wrote.

And the last line is literally "OK let's ~!" Daijoubu means "(I'm/It's) OK/Alright." and -mashou is a verb ending meaning "let's VERB" ... but he forgot the verb part.

Iki-mashou. "Let's go." Shi-mashou. "Let's do/make (something)." Yari-mashou! "Let's do it."

Needless to say, I am not impressed with this little shit's linguistic prowess. And the time I have spent on this should tell you just how much this kind of stupidity pisses me off.

[Schu]

I'm certainly not surprised he's full of shit.

[SandChigger]

He knows a little, but not as much as he pretends.

It's the utter self-confidence unsupported by much of any substance that irks me.

[Redstar]

Let's see what's new in Dumb today!

dumbnovels.com Forum Index » All Things Dune » Paul & Poison

The reason why Paul couldn't see the future is because it's impossible to see the future.

That's just awesome. No, really. To even think about a response is to give it way too much credit.

HBJ

Seriously, it would be nice if someone explained to those idiots at DN that fumbling your dick across the pages of a book is not considered reading.

A bit late, but it's called sarcasm.

[Hunchback Jack]

Having tried to read and write roman-character Chinese myself, it's hard to get right unless you do it a lot. Bel actually got close, which I found impressive.

I wouldn't claim to know Chinese tho, and if I were to actually post anything, I'd have my wife check it first.

HBJ

[GamePlayer]

Granted, he's getting it wrong on the specifics, but he's not doing bad. I've tried translating Japanese (I don't speak or read it) and it's brutal. They have so many different ways of translating to English and romanizing words, it becomes quite a task to translate. Japanese writers also have a tendency to "change rules" in mid-text or even mid-sentence. I wish I knew Japanese better because it would make translations easy, but I have to give kudos to anyone who can get it half right.

[Hunchback Jack]

A bit late, but it's called sarcasm.

Sorry about that. I didn't have context, so it was hard to tell.

HBJ

[SandChigger]

Hmm...

HBJ, did you run what he wrote past your wife to see if she could make any sense of it? I'd be curious to know what she says about it. I think most people clump the "words" together when they try to write it that way. 'Cause every little extra bit of information helps.

There are basically two systems for Japanese Romanization: the Hepburn, geared more for English/Western speakers, and the Kunrei(shiki), based more on a linguistic analysis of the language. Matsushima in the first is Matusima in the second. Fuji versus Huzi. Deshou vs desyou. Junko vs Zyunko.

Part of the source of the confusion is the fact that people are taught both systems in elementary school (Mr Teg can tell us if that's still the case in a few years), but then basically don't use them that often afterwards, so they tend to forget or get mixed up. And there's also a definite element of "I gotta be me!" silliness. (Like the "w" in Shirow? ) I had a student a few years back whose name started with the TS sound and he insisted he had been taught to write it TH. I told him I couldn't imagine why his teacher did that because it wasn't in accordance with any Romanization that I'd ever heard of. I told him he was welcome to continue using it on work he submitted to me but warned him that Westerners would most likely mispronounce his name all the time. (Which they'd do anyway, but worse than normal if he used TS. ) I tell the same thing, btw, to my students who insist on writing their names in native Japanese surname-first order.

Anyway, I see a lot of silly mixing of the two systems. My favorite is women named Junko who write their name Jyunko. (The Y is unneeded.)

The problem with Bel's Japanese is not simply that he's messing up the transliteration/translation from one writing system to another: he has failed as yet to internalize an essential feature of the phonological structure of the language. Namely that vowel (and consonant) length is significant in distinguishing words. Obasan (aunt) is NOT the same as obaasan (granny). Toukyou (the city) is not the same as tokkyo (patent) is not the same as toukyo (the residence in question).

So Mao is definitely not MaOu. Besides, the Japanese don't call Mao Mao; they call him Mou Takutou.

Finally, he's fooking the chow in terms of the grammar and vocabulary as well. I double-checked with a Japanese colleague before leaving work and later with a friend who frequents 2-Channel just to be sure: no kanoshii and no new slangy/"young" use of -mashou.

Even getting it "half right" might be commendable, but he's got a while to go before he's even there yet.

[GamePlayer]

Well, I'm not an expert, I was just sayin'. It just seems like he was getting it mostly right to me. To the layman such as myself, translating Japanese is really hard and I eventually gave up on it because (in my case) it was so much work for so little gain. If you say he needs work, then you'd be the one to know.

[Hunchback Jack]

Chig, I'll run it by her and see what she says. You did a great job, by the way. I couldn't decypher half of what you did.

Pronunciation from Roman-character Chinese is harder than figuring out the Chinese word . My wife's name is Haiyun Xu; her last name is pronounced "shu" rather than "zoo". Our son's name is Xiayi (pronounced Shah-yee), and most people here don't even try.

I'm not making fun of westerners, just illustrating your point that the pronunciation of roman-character Chinese follows very different rules from our own language.

(My wife and son have adopted western names, of course)

Edited to add: I wonder if the first 4 chinese words are (literally) "If you are not ...", but I would have thought the last two words should be swapped. (Taking a risk here without consulting the missus )

HBJ

[SandChigger]

Thanks!

Sorry if I came across as stroppy there, guys. I zonked out after dinner and woke up around 1:30 AM feeling nasty and pedantic.

On the pronunciation of Chinese, pet peeve: newscasters and reporters who completely fuck it up. What the hell? (I've probably mentioned this one before, but I still shudder with the memory of how Dan Rather's pronunciation of Tiananmen Square devolved over the course of the incident until it ended up sounding very much like "Chinamen Square". )

HBJ: is your wife's given name written with the characters meaning "Sea Cloud"? What does your son's mean? "Summer One" comes to mind ... as more possible than "Shrimp Change".

If I get bored later in the day, I may pull out the dictionaries and try to figure out more of Beru-chan's pinyin stream.


Please forgive unseemly objection and imposition of personal opinion, my Playah, by your humble servant. I am unworthy of such words as "expert". Ask Mike Resnick: I know nothing!

[Hunchback Jack]

Chig, exactly right in both cases.

HBJ

[Hunchback Jack]

I asked my wife about the pseudo-Chinese. She couldn't really make out anything meaningful. She basically said the same thing you did, Chig; if it were written in Chinese characters, she'd be able to understand it, but as its written, it's too hard to figure out what words he means.

Some phrases, like "bu kai" she didn't think meant anything; she couldn't think of any words that would correspond to. The rest of it (other than "Fuck your mother ...") didn't seem to make any sense either.

(It's funny; Laura's not fazed by strong language much at all, but she was quite shocked by the cursing in the Chinese sentence. I guess it has more impact in your native language )

HBJ

[SandChigger]

Thanks for bothering her with it. I think this qualifies as another BUG SCORE!

Since he's doing Japanese, too, I think he's mixing some things up. Tell her I think "bu kai" is actually bu-hui, because "kai" is how the Japanese pronounce the character used to write the Chinese auxiliary verb.

I managed to find a few more words (maybe):

zhaojia = fend off blows, hold one's own?
xiaobu = half-step? (military term?)
yuanjia = enemy or opponent?
taoshen = trying or bothersome? (colloquial)

she-bu-hui = be unable to shoot (at)?

len is not proper pinyin. Closest sounding combination is lian.
Likewise zhing is not a possible combination. ZH is a retroflex J sound made with the tongue curled back towards the roof of the mouth; (Y)ING is a front sound ... the two don't mix. Jing is a possibility, which coming after pei makes me think maybe he meant Beijing, with interference from either English (or Japanese) Peking.

Couldn't find anything for xia-xiong, but xia-xiang means "go (down) to the country(side)/leave the city" (away from the civilized place being "down"; it's the same in Japanese). Turn it around and add -ren "person" and you get xiangxiaren "country bumpkin". Evidently there's a whole genre of jokes and anecdotes making fun of rubes in the big city. My Chinese teachers at OSU (Nora and Eugene [=Yujin] Ching [=Jing] used to tell us some as listening comprehension exercises.

Anyway, I think this establishes beyond doubt that Beru-kun's Chinese isn't much better than his Japanese. I hope he continues studying, because both are fascinating languages. But he's not yet ready for prime time.

(I made a mistake myself earlier calling him "Beru-chan"; he's a teenage male, so -kun is more correct. )

About cursing: I like to think that in your native language it hits you "where you live". I can say some things in Japanese without batting an eye that I (yes, even I) would blush to even think in English.

[GamePlayer]

It's no problem, SC.

Oh, and fuck Mike Resnick. Pretentious ass can shove his resume up his own. I hope he replies to you. I'm going to enjoy watching him make a fool of himself on your blog.

[SandChigger]

He came back a few times after posting his second comment (I just knew he would ) but hasn't been back since I posted my reply that I can tell. (His second comment was from a different IP address than the first, so he may be coming back with a different one and I just can't tell because he's not commenting.)

It would be a shame for him to miss all the comments everyone has left, of course, but then again, good riddance.

[Hunchback Jack]

Could "kai" mean "victory", and therefore "bu kai" mean "loss" or "defeat"? (Okay, I looked that up in a dictionary, I admit).

Anyway, you're getting much further on it than Laura did. I thought it would be a slam dunk for her, but of course, she reads Chinese in the original, and doesn't have much cause at all to read the westernized version.

I just revisited the Resnick blog entry. There are some great comments left there (Amp, SR, good work).

HBJ

[SandChigger]

Defeat ... as in "beats me!"

Maybe I'm just a wee bit more used to seeing Chinese written in pinyin? To "feel her pain," imagine trying to read English written in the Sanskrit alphabet.

(A big thank you to everyone who has dropped by and commented on the blog. )

[Schu]

In a perfect state of anarchy, any written law would be anathema. .
~Piter De Vries, Reflections of a Twisted Mentat

“Piter, your devilish plan is working” The Beast Rabban chortled.

Piters deep blue eyes glazed over as he reflected on his plan to put the Beast Raban in power whilst simultaneously throwing down the Baron Harkonen, the Emperor, and Muad’Dib’s fremen. It was easy enough to use his contacts on Bene Tleilax to request an exact ghola of himself to die in his place before the Baron’s very eyes. So it wasn’t so difficult to ally himself with the Tleilaxu to request a Khwisatz Haderach whom he kept perpetually drugged in this former deep desert smuggler’s base. And now, Glossu Rabban standing before him would soon unleash a secret army to everyone’s surprise.

“Our Kwistaz Haderach prophesized that Paul would soon try to change the Water of Life . . and be held in a deathly trance for many days” Piter said, “And our spies have reported that Jessica thinks her son has been poisoned.”

“Now is the time” Rabban replied.

Oh god.

So, apparently Paul is not an oracle and is not shielded from other oracles by his prescience. AND IT'S ALL SOOOO CONVENIENT! Remember that part in Dune where Piter's arrogance gets him killed? WELL THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, PITER IS JUST TOO AWESOME FOR THAT!!!1!

Oh, and we have the extremely clever ( ) idea of keeping a KH in Jacurutu/Fondak. Wow!

Having read the rest of it, I'm pretty sure Arnoldo is actually a sockpuppet for KJA.

[Schu]

I just read a few more of his fanfics. They're really hilarious. A lot of them seem to be in the format "x vs. y". Reminds me of kids that actually argue "who would win in a fight, a t-rex or a fighter jet?".

I'm tempted to write a parody "titans vs sandworms" fanfic myself.

[Redstar]

I was a bit curious about Piter having a continued existence, but that thought slipped away as I read on.

I just read a few more of his fanfics. They're really hilarious. A lot of them seem to be in the format "x vs. y". Reminds me of kids that actually argue "who would win in a fight, a t-rex or a fighter jet?".

What about t-rexes in fighter jets vs. sandworms vs. Sandworms?

[TheDukester]

[DuneFishUK]

I've been meaning to visit the US just so I can see Jets vs Giants, although Cowboys vs. Dolphins also holds some appeal. We don't get that sort of shit over here....

[SandChigger]

It was Sole Man that started those "x vs y" fanfics over there. Usually it was his High Desert Rider (High Dunes Drifter? whatever) against the local law officer or a whole saloon full of angry people. Silliness like that.

Arnoldo's a derivative idiot.