Defense of the New Books

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 22 Nov 2008 00:12

Tleszer wrote:
Rakis wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
Frybread wrote:Speaking of stealing from other sources, isn't Kevin's "The Saga of Seven Suns" series just a hodge-podge of other authors' SciFi ideas?
It's like every space opera idea that has ever been written was thrown into a blender and then stretched out into seven books' worth of hiking and dictating. Not an original thought to be found.
More like he ate space opera and puked it in seven books...
So he's a bird trying to nurture his young?

You mean Brian?

Tleszer · Post by **Tleszer** » 22 Nov 2008 00:22

Rakis wrote:
Tleszer wrote:
Rakis wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
Frybread wrote:Speaking of stealing from other sources, isn't Kevin's "The Saga of Seven Suns" series just a hodge-podge of other authors' SciFi ideas?
It's like every space opera idea that has ever been written was thrown into a blender and then stretched out into seven books' worth of hiking and dictating. Not an original thought to be found.
More like he ate space opera and puked it in seven books...
So he's a bird trying to nurture his young?
You mean Brian?

Could very well be.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 28 Nov 2008 20:23

The topic title has been changed, by request.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 28 Nov 2008 21:50

Wanting to distance himself from it, eh?

It'll take it a while to work out of the spider caches, though:

JACURUTU :: View topic - Simon's Defense of the New Books
Simon's Defense of the New Books Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 13, 14, 15. Post new topic · Reply to topic · JACURUTU Forum Index -> The Prequels/Sequels ...

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 29 Nov 2008 00:02

But, just to be sure, is this thread the same as Simon's Defense of the New Books?

You know, the one about Simon's defense of the New Books?

Tleszer · Post by **Tleszer** » 29 Nov 2008 00:31

Rakis wrote:But, just to be sure, is this thread the same as Simon's Defense of the New Books?

You know, the one about Simon's defense of the New Books?

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 29 Nov 2008 01:33

Rakis wrote:But, just to be sure, is this thread the same as Simon's Defense of the New Books?

You know, the one about Simon's defense of the New Books?

Yes, this is the same thread, only now Simon's name doesn't appear in the title, because he PMed Freak and asked for it to be changed.

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 30 Nov 2008 00:33

SandChigger wrote:
Rakis wrote:But, just to be sure, is this thread the same as Simon's Defense of the New Books?

You know, the one about Simon's defense of the New Books?

Yes, this is the same thread, only now Simon's name doesn't appear in the title, because he PMed Freak and asked for it to be changed.

Well, i'm glad for Simon

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 30 Nov 2008 04:11

Yore glad for him. I'm reheeled for him!

chanilover · Post by **chanilover** » 30 Nov 2008 09:11

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 30 Nov 2008 11:25

I choose, sanely enough, to forget "defending" the new works on this site. What's the point? More name calling? As I told Freak, no matter how good I think my defense is, no matter how well prepared, some things you gents find fault in are indisputable. As for the rest, the items which don't involve strict error but are a matter of taste, it will always come back to the often repeated line "Bullshit Simon!".

Hence I've chosen the path of respect (which I feel is essential to a meaningful dialog). I won't pollute your board with sentiment you've no regard for. I'm not going to defend BH and KJA. If they want a defense or feel the need to defend themselves, let them do so. If it isn't their concern, why on Earth should it be mine? If anyone wishes to talk "classic VS. nu" bring it to the PM, where we can talk civilly without the hoopla. If that doesn't work for you, then it didn't matter any way.

IMO: This "defense" thread is laughable. It's like a kangaroo court. If you want to chase my tail just yank items you think fool hardy from DN, I'm sure you'll find something I've said you disagree with and wish to kick around amongst yourselves for petty amusements. I'm no longer a contributor in regard to defenses on this site. It is a waste of our time.

However, as was mentioned in my PM to Freak, I am still going forward with my annotations for the purpose of participation on this board. The goal has changed from "defense" to understanding. I have to concede to the point that the new books do have an effect on a readers view of the Duniverse (ill or nil just a matter of opinion). Thus I'm doing my best to put the shades cast by the new works aside and try and see the Duniverse in a strictly classical light. Avoiding needless, topic derailing, faux pas.

Now if you folks feel that the name "Simon" is sooooo important (:roll:) then by all means put it back on. I just don't care to "up my internet fame" in this manner. I'd rather it be through positive acts than petty bickering. Still, I'll defer to you gents in this. I mean if you just have to have my name on this thread, fine by me. Any press is good press.

Lundse · Post by **Lundse** » 30 Nov 2008 12:33

Simon wrote:I choose, sanely enough, to forget "defending" the new works on this site. What's the point? More name calling? As I told Freak, no matter how good I think my defense is, no matter how well prepared, some things you gents find fault in are indisputable. As for the rest, the items which don't involve strict error but are a matter of taste, it will always come back to the often repeated line "Bullshit Simon!".

There are several things wrong with this, primarily a false dilemma. You say that there are some indisputable problems, and then there are matters of taste - effectively cutting off all discussion because this would imply that we either agree from the start (though not necessarily on the importance of the issues) or we never will.
You comments that some unspecified 'we' will only respond with namecalling and 'bullshit Simon' is, in its own passive-aggresive way itself namecalling - I certainly resent those comments and would ask you to kindly forego making such statements in the future so sweeping as to encompass me.

Simon wrote:Hence I've chosen the path of respect (which I feel is essential to a meaningful dialog). I won't pollute your board with sentiment you've no regard for. I'm not going to defend BH and KJA. If they want a defense or feel the need to defend themselves, let them do so. If it isn't their concern, why on Earth should it be mine? If anyone wishes to talk "classic VS. nu" bring it to the PM, where we can talk civilly without the hoopla. If that doesn't work for you, then it didn't matter any way.

This is completely nonsensical, I am afraid. Out of respect for the dialogue you chose to... not have the dialogue. We may not have any inherent respect for 'your sentiments', but I for one have enough respect for my own that I am willing to stick up for them - I welcome the dialogue and debate and would love to hear from those who believe differently from me. The worst that can happen is that I learn something!
Now, KJA&BH (have declined to defend the new books. You have entered discussions on the matter before, and unlike Byron (who ignores questions he does not like and ban people), Arnoldo (who believes he can throw around terms like 'ad hominem' randomly and thereby win discussions), and Fantomas and other (who simply resort directly to namecalling), you have been doing it rather respectfully and intelligently.

Simon wrote:IMO: This "defense" thread is laughable. It's like a kangaroo court. If you want to chase my tail just yank items you think fool hardy from DN, I'm sure you'll find something I've said you disagree with and wish to kick around amongst yourselves for petty amusements. I'm no longer a contributor in regard to defenses on this site. It is a waste of our time.

I respectfully disagree.
You are correct that taking snippets from DN and pouncing on each others not-so-carefully-worded mistakes leads to nothing. But this is not a indictment of the dialogue as such. We could have a serious debate on eg. the Butlerian Jihad according to Frank Herbert - and I have tried to do so. I am not interested in 'he said/I said' commentary on one another, but in a debate regarding how we read Frank Herbert - and I do not believe that serious debate is ever truly wasted, certainly not when dealing with such an interesting subject matter.

Simon wrote:However, as was mentioned in my PM to Freak, I am still going forward with my annotations for the purpose of participation on this board. The goal has changed from "defense" to understanding. I have to concede to the point that the new books do have an effect on a readers view of the Duniverse (ill or nil just a matter of opinion). Thus I'm doing my best to put the shades cast by the new works aside and try and see the Duniverse in a strictly classical light. Avoiding needless, topic derailing, faux pas.

Now if you folks feel that the name "Simon" is sooooo important (:roll:) then by all means put it back on. I just don't care to "up my internet fame" in this manner. I'd rather it be through positive acts than petty bickering. Still, I'll defer to you gents in this. I mean if you just have to have my name on this thread, fine by me. Any press is good press.

I care not one bit about the thread name, personally.
But you did tell me at one point that you would return to the debate (re. some point I made) and now you seem to be saying you won't. You are, of course, free to change your mind...

If you do not want to have the debate here, because of the general behaviour on this board towards <sarcasm> 'your kind' </sarcasm>, I am sympathetic towards that. You mention using the PM system - that would be fine by me.
I have summed up my stance here: viewtopic.php?p=14668 and would like to hear especially how you read Alia's comments that machines were trustworthy and Leto II's statements on the reasons behind the Jihad. I believe this is an instance of something which is in no way a minor nitpick (the reason for why the universe is as it is at the time of Dune, a parallel to Paul's prescience, an exploration of FH's views on politics, etc.), nor that it is simply a 'matter of taste' (it is a matter of reading the books, not of liking part X or getting a certain impression of part Y).

I hope to hear from you one way or another...

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » 30 Nov 2008 15:12

After 27 pages of attacks, I doubt he remembered his promise to come back and debate you.

Seraphan · Post by **Seraphan** » 30 Nov 2008 15:25

(the reason for why the universe is as it is at the time of Dune, a parallel to Paul's prescience, an exploration of FH's views on politics, etc.), nor that it is simply a 'matter of taste' (it is a matter of reading the books, not of liking part X or getting a certain impression of part Y).

Well said! My main problem with the authors is how they are publishing stuff that has none of the original novels substance and yet they keep saying "It's Dune, no it isnt wrong and it's your biased interpretation". As long as you're willing to talk simon, i dont give a shit at what other people say, each is responsible for his/hers own words.
Going around namecalling in furry someone that pops up and asks at DN about the original Dune and this other stuff, really doesnt help anyone its true.
While some are incredibly gullible, we should inform them of those lies, show them the frank herbert interviews, show them KJA & the other guy's response, not acting like a bunch of stucked up pricks, we're not the HLP.
I'm all for giving people a chance, if (like that beardedsomethingorother) someone blindly states crap with no fundament then i shall be the first to grab the pitch fork.
If you feel safer through PM's Simon, i'm ok with it and i dont mind talking with you that way. Just please dont desrespect people by treating them as a general population, if it's A, B or C that offended you then address them as such.

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 30 Nov 2008 16:42

Oh, the drama ...

Simon, post if you want to. Don't post if you don't feel like it.

There. Problem solved.

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 30 Nov 2008 18:23

I don't know.

There's no way to defend the new books & say they are a continuation of and
consistent with Dune. That's just not true and easily argued against.
There's no way to defend Keith's, Brian's, Merritt's and the HLP's behavior in relation to the
notes issue, the manipulation of the Amazon review pages, their attitudes and responses to
disgruntled fans, the way the Dunenovels forum was run etc. & etc.

The only thing Simon can say is "I like them." And I can try hard not to call hard him an
idiot or ridicule him, and fail. He likes Star Wars, too, and thinks comic books are high
art. Therefore, I could never take his opinion on American Literature seriously, so I don't
think there's much he could add to the real Dune discussion.

I had hoped he could atleast man-up and keep coming back with the lame HLP corporate
lines, as their resident representative, and take the slings and arrows due an enemy in the camp.
I disagree with Duke; I like drama ....

Post by **Omphalos** » 30 Nov 2008 18:38

Simon wrote:However, as was mentioned in my PM to Freak, I am still going forward with my annotations for the purpose of participation on this board.

What annotations are you talking about Simon?

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 30 Nov 2008 18:52

I think he's re-reading the True Dune books and taking notes ... something like that.

Not a bad idea, really; I've been meaning to give Dune itself another read myself. I'll probably skip the notes, but I might write in the margins a bit.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 30 Nov 2008 19:21

When he copies quotes into his notes, I wonder if he'll misspell them....

Post by **Omphalos** » 30 Nov 2008 19:55

Seeing that should be a treat. I wonder if he as the express written permission of the HLP?

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 30 Nov 2008 22:40

Well, it's not like he's going to publish them in printed form.

Or create a website around them, right?

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 30 Nov 2008 23:44

SandChigger wrote:
Or create a website around them, right?

One DNBBS is more than enough...and Simon can defend the books all he want over there.

By the way, how is that going on over there?

Oh...i forgot...

NOBODY post over there anymore...

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 01 Dec 2008 02:00

Omphalos wrote:
Simon wrote:However, as was mentioned in my PM to Freak, I am still going forward with my annotations for the purpose of participation on this board.
What annotations are you talking about Simon?

The Duke got it right. I'm re-reading the series taking only the classics into account. Pretty much I've always had the new stuff there, so I've never really read just the classics without the new works bleeding into FH's story.
Thought I'd give it a try in order to see that facet of the Duniverse, the original Duniverse in it's pristine glory, as it were.

(I figured it'd allow a discussion which wouldn't end in "That's not my Duniverse!" as is inevitable when I bring some non-FH aspect to the table.)

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 01 Dec 2008 03:19

Omphalos wrote:

Seeing that should be a treat. I wonder if he as the express written permission of the HLP?

And yes, I don't expect much to come from the effort save some golden zingers from the heckler's box.

Lundse · Post by **Lundse** » 01 Dec 2008 04:29

Simon wrote:
Omphalos wrote:Seeing that should be a treat. I wonder if he as the express written permission of the HLP?

Actually, in a recent ruling re. Rowlings childrens fantasy universe, it was made pretty clear that Simon would probably be allowed to publish such notes!
As long as there is very little verbatim copying and the new work does not sell as the same product which they refer (eg. is an encyclopedia over the Potter-verse and not a re-telling of the story and hence too much like the books themselves)...