How many Duncans does it take to get to the center of a....

Spicebeer · Post by **Spicebeer** » 26 Feb 2008 20:11

How many Duncans do you think Leto had?
if he ruled for 3500 years and people live to be over 300 in the dune universe he could of had around 12.
But he killed a few prematurely anyone have any thoughts?

Post by **Freakzilla** » 26 Feb 2008 21:30

Even when not crushed by a Worm-God, Duncan Idaho's don't tend to live long. My guess would be in the dozens.

Spicebeer · Post by **Spicebeer** » 26 Feb 2008 22:11

just the answer I was looking for.... mwhahahahahahahahahha

....

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 27 Feb 2008 01:09

I always get my donuts by the dozen.

Post by **Omphalos** » 27 Feb 2008 01:11

Nacnud come by the twos.

Crysknife · Post by **Crysknife** » 27 Feb 2008 01:18

Omphalos wrote:Nacnud come by the twos.

Hehe

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 27 Feb 2008 01:29

Galach lives!

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 27 Feb 2008 09:36

Moneo has seen their records and has seen enough of them dead. He knows that only nineteen Duncans died what people usually refer to as natural deaths.

All the others were killed. If we assume that Duncan, with the benefits of spice, lived to be at least 100 (probably more), that's 1900 years already accounted for, leaving another 1600 years of possible Duncan deaths. Surely they made it at least 50 years before flipping out? That would be about another 32--I'm going to ballpark that there were 50 Duncans total

Spicebeer · Post by **Spicebeer** » 27 Feb 2008 14:53

hmm.. thanks for the info.

but this brings a little bit of confusion...
Wasn't Miles Teg (the original) over 300? He stayed away from spice. But maybe this is because of advances in medical technology?

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 27 Feb 2008 16:08

Yeah, my estimate of living to 100 on spice is a gross underestimate I am certain, but it makes the math easy

Spicebeer · Post by **Spicebeer** » 27 Feb 2008 16:25

I recall a few of the books saying that the average life span is about tripled by the influence of spice.... I also recall the average non spice life span being a little over 100.

But it is also my understanding that Miles Teg had an aversion to the spice...though his life span was over 300.

interesting

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 27 Feb 2008 17:02

Well if Duncan lived to be 300 years for each of his "natural"deaths, and there were 19 of them, that would be 5700 years--much longer than the Tyrants reign. So that definately doesn't work......

(Spicebeer, sent you a PM on moving this topic out of the reading group)

Post by **Freakzilla** » 27 Feb 2008 20:35

Tleilax Master B wrote:Well if Duncan lived to be 300 years for each of his "natural"deaths, and there were 19 of them, that would be 5700 years--much longer than the Tyrants reign. So that definately doesn't work......

(Spicebeer, sent you a PM on moving this topic out of the reading group)

He could have retired while Leto had another shipped to him. There could have been a few Duncan's alive at the same time.

Phaedrus · Post by **Phaedrus** » 27 Feb 2008 22:48

Spicebeer wrote:I recall a few of the books saying that the average life span is about tripled by the influence of spice.... I also recall the average non spice life span being a little over 100.

But it is also my understanding that Miles Teg had an aversion to the spice...though his life span was over 300.

interesting

Teg didn't have an aversion to the spice, Moneo did.

Spicebeer · Post by **Spicebeer** » 28 Feb 2008 00:54

I think both did
I'd look it up but I'm busy with school work with just happens to be about dune...

inhuien · Post by **inhuien** » 28 Feb 2008 09:30

In HoD Frank Herbert wrote:Taraza smiled and moved farther into the room. No signs of the melange cycle in Teg, she observed. Teg's advanced years always raised the suspicion that he might resort to the leavening effect of the spice. Nothing about him revealed even the faintest hint of the melange addiction that even the strongest sometimes turned to when they felt their end approaching. Teg wore his old uniform jacket of Supreme Bashar but without the gold starbursts at shoulder and collar. This was a signal she recognized. He said: "Remember how I earned this in your service. I have not failed you this time, either."

The quote above may not state that Teg had an avertion to Spice but it’s clear from it that he didn’t take it regularly.

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 28 Feb 2008 09:49

inhuien wrote:
In HoD Frank Herbert wrote:Taraza smiled and moved farther into the room. No signs of the melange cycle in Teg, she observed. Teg's advanced years always raised the suspicion that he might resort to the leavening effect of the spice. Nothing about him revealed even the faintest hint of the melange addiction that even the strongest sometimes turned to when they felt their end approaching. Teg wore his old uniform jacket of Supreme Bashar but without the gold starbursts at shoulder and collar. This was a signal she recognized. He said: "Remember how I earned this in your service. I have not failed you this time, either."
The quote above may not state that Teg had an avertion to Spice but it’s clear from it that he didn’t take it regularly.

See, "da boys" missed a golden opportunity here. Teg lives 300 years without spice--that means he is the SUPER MEGA BIG TIME MAJOR KWISATZ HADERACH!!!!

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 28 Feb 2008 10:12

Ah! Ah! Moderator using BIG RED LETTERS! AAAAAAH!

Poor Teg...supertimed himself into skin and bones, and what good did it do?

Will just observe, since no one else has, that the New Canon answer to the question here is at least a thousand.

After all, isn't one of the books mentioned in their epigraphs entitled A Thousand Lives and a Life, or something equally silly?

Spicebeer · Post by **Spicebeer** » 28 Feb 2008 10:26

there is also a quote that says something about the 1000 sons of duncan idaho and the 8 (i think) daughters of siona.
I always thought of it not being literal sons and to be just gholas... but I didn't take it too seriously just something to say for affect ... but I suppose it could be literal sons too his gholas got around *shrug*

* I don't think I should post when I just wake up most of my original didn't really make sense.

Phaedrus · Post by **Phaedrus** » 28 Feb 2008 11:27

inhuien wrote:
In HoD Frank Herbert wrote:Taraza smiled and moved farther into the room. No signs of the melange cycle in Teg, she observed. Teg's advanced years always raised the suspicion that he might resort to the leavening effect of the spice. Nothing about him revealed even the faintest hint of the melange addiction that even the strongest sometimes turned to when they felt their end approaching. Teg wore his old uniform jacket of Supreme Bashar but without the gold starbursts at shoulder and collar. This was a signal she recognized. He said: "Remember how I earned this in your service. I have not failed you this time, either."
The quote above may not state that Teg had an avertion to Spice but it’s clear from it that he didn’t take it regularly.

He wasn't addicted, but he took it in strong enough doses to lengthen his life. We also know he took it in "increased" doses when the Sisterhood trained him as a Mentat and tested him for prescience.

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 28 Feb 2008 16:22

Spicebeer wrote:there is also a quote that says something about the 1000 sons of duncan idaho and the 8 (i think) daughters of siona.
I always thought of it not being literal sons and to be just gholas... but I didn't take it too seriously just something to say for affect ... but I suppose it could be literal sons too his gholas got around *shrug*

* I don't think I should post when I just wake up most of my original didn't really make sense.

Uhhh, I think that is referring to the offspring of Siona and Duncan, not to the gholas themselves. And I think it is figurative in the sense of a thriving population of individuals with the Siona gene.

What I think is interesting is what role did Duncan's back-breeding have in the eventual development of the Siona gene? We know Leto II included him in the breeding program. This may have eventually led to the gene coming to fruition in Siona (i.e Siona was a descendant of Duncan). She then mated with Duncan, whom may have the gene that originally developed into the Siona gene, and these two were combined into a heterozygous gene in their offspring. This may have actually produced a phenotype of improved invisibility to presicience....

Phaedrus · Post by **Phaedrus** » 29 Feb 2008 13:38

Tleilax Master B wrote:
Spicebeer wrote:there is also a quote that says something about the 1000 sons of duncan idaho and the 8 (i think) daughters of siona.
I always thought of it not being literal sons and to be just gholas... but I didn't take it too seriously just something to say for affect ... but I suppose it could be literal sons too his gholas got around *shrug*

* I don't think I should post when I just wake up most of my original didn't really make sense.
Uhhh, I think that is referring to the offspring of Siona and Duncan, not to the gholas themselves. And I think it is figurative in the sense of a thriving population of individuals with the Siona gene.

What I think is interesting is what role did Duncan's back-breeding have in the eventual development of the Siona gene? We know Leto II included him in the breeding program. This may have eventually led to the gene coming to fruition in Siona (i.e Siona was a descendant of Duncan). She then mated with Duncan, whom may have the gene that originally developed into the Siona gene, and these two were combined into a heterozygous gene in their offspring. This may have actually produced a phenotype of improved invisibility to presicience....

Yeah, I always assumed that there was something really important about Siona producing spawn via a Duncan. Never could think of a reason, but that makes a lot of sense...

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 01 Mar 2008 02:15

One possible reason has come up over on Crys' "worm transplant" thread, no?

orald · Post by **orald** » 04 Mar 2008 15:06

Teg had to use at least some spice, as all mentats do, no?
But he wasn't taking in more than the bare minimum required by him.

I'd hazard to say there were at least several dozen Duncans, maybe a hundred or something of that magnitude.

If you consider the fact that every time a Duncan dies Leto pulls a new one almost immidietly from Tleilax, and that alot of them, being the loyal, prideful pricks that they are and serving as head of security, died prematurely in either battle, assasination or by Leto himself, you could easily get to that number.
Just look how swiftly the new Duncan fell into "place" even before he met Hwi.
Duncan's and Leto's imperium's morality views just don't mix well.

Also, IIRC, in Chapterhouse Duncan gets "flashbacks" about lots and lots of Duncans, especially when he's finally reawakened by Teg.
I'm a little rusty on the quotes right now though. Something with the gholas memories squized "sausage like" or "hot-dog like".

loremaster · Post by **loremaster** » 04 Mar 2008 16:53

I think Superstring came up with the best explanation for a Duncan + Siona mating..., but here's a bit i`ve added myself too at the bottom.

Remember, Siona wasnt COMPLETELY invisbile to Letos visions, he states that he DID see her, but then she fades from sight, she was partially invisible. He speculates over whether or not it will be her. The siona gene wasnt complete, it required one final "backbreeding" into the duncans relatively normal genes in order to complete it.

Also, dont forget that politically, the Fish speakers would follow duncan, not Siona. (Leto, GEoD), and that since siona "inherited" the golden path, so to speak, she needed the fish speakers and ergo needed duncan.

Orald - I dont remember mentats NEEDING spice. I dont remember thufir taking any? or duncan in DM. Piter was addicted tho, most of the other mentats we encounter are clouded as they're Bene Gesserit.