it hurts my heart

[distrans]

that anything positive can be accomplished
via the inhumanity frank illustrated

on first read you tempted to learn there are better objectives to incorporate as you proceed with your humanity

and there are

but I find there are copious reasons to point the finger at those who gave us so few avenue to point a finger once weve decided we should

and the storys we cling to leave them outside of indicating target most assuradly

from my read

frank leaves then unindited co-conspirators
at best

and mostly he has chosen to not point the finger as he could

im guessing its because he didnt want to be dated

the guilty are the guilty
and theyre always amongst us


but theyre description becomes dateds to you pin them down


how do you make a difference
when the enemy has it so
the second you raise your voice
your working for him?

id call that a tought strait...

hope I didn't help you find solice after killing anyone me saying that...

thoughts?

[georgiedenbro]

Dune is about ecology. In his books things devolve because the environment creates incentive and need, not because people are bad. A brutal society is reflective of technology + environment that pushes towards that system. Although there are occasional Harkonnens in each mess, the books are not about villains but about how people are shaped by environment just as much as they can shape it.

[distrans]

civilization was the formalized exploit of ecology
no longer just living
surviving

where the early suscessful exploiters religions from the start or did religious power spring up to wrest it from it originators?

[georgiedenbro]

civilization was the formalized exploit of ecology
where the early suscessful exploiters religions from the start or did religious power spring up to wrest it from it originators?

You're having the same confusion about this as you did about villains. Religion and human environment affect each other. It's not about which one came first, but about how one shapes the other and is shaped back. The 'religion' of the jihad was a result of a war against men with machines; but then the religion became the core of the new power structure; and the religion became the thing against which certain parties struggled, such as Ix, Richesse, and Bene Tleilax; and the religion's dictates about AI resulted in a need for non-mechanical enhancements for the mind, which in turn led to spice being predominant; and that in turn led to the Fremen revolt and a new religion. So the one doesn't just "spring up" and try to take over the other. It doesn't work like that.

[distrans]

same confusion
Religion and human environment affect each other.
It's not about which one came first,
but about how one shapes the other and is shaped back.

The 'religion' of the jihad was a result of a war against men with machines;
but then the religion became the core of the new power structure;

and the religion became the thing against which certain parties struggled, such as Ix, Richesse, and Bene Tleilax;

and the religion's dictates about AI resulted in a need for non-mechanical enhancements for the mind,
led to spice being predominant;

that in turn led to the Fremen revolt and a new religion.

the one doesn't just "spring up" and try to take over the other.
doesn't work like that.

ive noticed something of a divide
those whos interest in dune is as a lense to analysis our day lives
and those for whom its top drawer escapism

it would prove dificult to communicate past such a divide


pet subject of my intests are anthro and archeaology so 'first occurance' intrests me
so i was fishing for what yall might have noticed franks said id missed

but damn
we know alot more now than he ever had a chance to

noticed any examples of this so far?

[georgiedenbro]

You can be interested in your own thing, apart from what Frank was writing about, but when looking in the book for stuff what you'll have to find is what he wrote. If you want to find instances of what you're looking for it may be easier to do so in the real world's history than in books written about ecological transformation.

As far as us knowing more than Frank could - about what? What thing do you think we know better than may supercede what he was saying?

[distrans]

the standouts for me now are geological
plate techtonics was still being argued in his heyday
ive never understood why the geomagnetic data gathered across the atlantic seas floor took so long to sink in

but the big huge one he didn't live to see was how frequent major impact are on the planets
civilization don't live through these events so any one of them would theyre hard pressed to get their shit together and prevent or survive the first one their confronted with

just imagine if that tunguska object had been a couple hours late in arriving
and had been an irony object

it would have been europe instead of the russians trees and reindeer

and our world would be far different

[georgiedenbro]

So? Why is that relevant to Dune?

[distrans]

well A because such information was straight up what frank was into the study of and B he said he was writing in order to teach...

[georgiedenbro]

well A because such information was straight up what frank was into the study of and B he said he was writing in order to teach...

He wasn't trying to teach every subject in the world. How are these scientific fields at present relevant to the message of Dune? What do you think they would change?

[distrans]

well
my thought was that an unstanding of this detail or orbital mechanics in solar arrangements would inflict such a constraint on the age any civilization was going to survive past that

it would have deeply altered how he arranged the background of his story...

[georgiedenbro]

well
my thought was that an unstanding of this detail or orbital mechanics in solar arrangements would inflict such a constraint on the age any civilization was going to survive past that

it would have deeply altered how he arranged the background of his story...

The book is about ecology, not geology. He provided an example of an ecosystem, both social and planetary; but they are just examples of how to look at this kind of thing. There is no merit to picking apart his description of Arrakis or anything and trying to update it with new geological knowledge; it's just irrelevant. There are obviously no such things as Shai-hulud, and the setting is fictitious. I think the areas that he framed as being more predictive are the political landscape, the problem of control through machines, the advancement of human ability (the "schools"), and the use of narcotics to enhance performance. We're not nearly advanced enough in any of these areas for our new knowledge to impact on his predictions, in my view.

[distrans]

there is no doubt the book is about ecology

but what im trying to talk about is the basis from which he started typing to begin with

dangerous territory no doubt...