Moderators: Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos
Hi!Captain_Cackwurst wrote:I've been wondering about Leto's motivation to walk the golden path for quite a while, and it appears that i cannot catch the reasoning behind his doing. So, what do you think? Why does Leto care so much for the survival of humankind?
That's not a very specific reason. I would get it if Leto would have to, like, move a finger to save humanity or so, but considering how far he went for it, i think there needs to be more than a 'feeling' that he wanted humanity to survive.Freakzilla wrote:I know I want the human race to survive and can't imagine not caring.
Good point. And this reminds me of something else: Many of the foreseeing people (forgot the correct term) draw a picture of future and past merging together, most of the time to show how shitty foreseeing actually is. But what if, say, one of us had the chance to change the past and prevent the shoa, or whatever catastrophy, by sacrificing himself, the way Leto changes the future by sacrificing himself. This, at least to me, makes it much more imagineable for a human being with decent social abilities to sacrifice himself. And not to forget that, as you said, he will not watch the horrific events of history the way we do, through museums and TV-documentaries, but look at them as (even more than) a direct bystander.Hunchback Jack wrote:I think it makes a big difference that Leto can see the alternative to the Golden Path. It's not a theoretical intangible thing. He knows what it will be like.
Nice analogy there. Anyways, the human arm can be described as a collective of cells (and other stuff) that work together for a certain goal, for a certain reason. The reason for each cell to integrate in this collective is, simplified, mechanics. It has no choice, and is therefore not comparable with humans in a collective of humans. Paul had a choice, so why shouldn't Leto have one too? (oh wait, Paul didn't have memories, right? ok i take that back)georgiedenbro wrote: I think it's best to always remember that becoming a Reverend Mother (even a male one) will tend to put a person in line with BG thinking. Something about one's genetic heritage along with not being a stand-alone person but rather a part of a whole that exists over time makes asking why preserve the rest of humanity like asking your arm why it works to preserve the rest of the body. But only a RM would see this connection as self-evident and essential to her essence.
georgiedenbro wrote: Another thing to consider besides general genetic lineage and being attuned to it is the Atreides noble breeding. Although Leto and Ghani were true Fremen they were still also Atreides. They may have been capable of more than Paul in terms of methods but I doubt they could help having noble desires any more than Paul could.
In DM we learn that Paul can see the future paths down to the most miniscule detail, at least in events that would directly involve him. Leto had this same ability, only more powerful and with further range. He can choose to see whatever futures he wants, and in Leto's case we imagine he's seen all of them that matter. He already started with Paul's memories of the future and so had no choice about knowing those, but he did choose to see the most terrible futures on top of it that Paul didn't examine.Captain_Cackwurst wrote: What i am just wondering here is whether Leto sees future the way we look at the past (you know, like this random duck you saw five years ago and now surely can describe in perfect detail), or whether he can have / has a detailed picture of everything that will/may happen in his mind. Doesn't he choose to not see everything that happens in future? How can he see the horror of human extinction then?
Paul had the full male and female genetic memories open to him, although Dune didn't make as big a deal of it as was later made in CoD about the twins. The Atreides all had a choice about what to care about, but as I mentioned above, FH's thesis is that once you know certain truths about humans and the past it will tend to align you towards a similar path the BG are on.Captain_Cackwurst wrote:Nice analogy there. Anyways, the human arm can be described as a collective of cells (and other stuff) that work together for a certain goal, for a certain reason. The reason for each cell to integrate in this collective is, simplified, mechanics. It has no choice, and is therefore not comparable with humans in a collective of humans. Paul had a choice, so why shouldn't Leto have one too? (oh wait, Paul didn't have memories, right? ok i take that back)georgiedenbro wrote: I think it's best to always remember that becoming a Reverend Mother (even a male one) will tend to put a person in line with BG thinking. Something about one's genetic heritage along with not being a stand-alone person but rather a part of a whole that exists over time makes asking why preserve the rest of humanity like asking your arm why it works to preserve the rest of the body. But only a RM would see this connection as self-evident and essential to her essence.
On the other hand, i think it was pretty much stated by Leto himself in CoH that he was a collective himself, not just a human (unlike RM, didn't they actually have the upper hand over their memories and therefore are to be considered individuals?). But the question remains: Why would a collective of humans sacrifice its own humanity in order to save the human race? Why would a collective of humans even care for being human or not?
Unlike how we think of it now, nobility in the sense it's meant in Dune doesn't just mean having a title, land, or power. It involves literal breeding that creates certain kinds of human stock that are specialized in certain ways. It's hard for us to zero in on exactly which parts of Paul and Leto were there from breeding, and which from education and environment, but either way when we say they're nobles it means something tangible. The differences in environment show when we compare Paul and Feyd, but both were of prime genetic stock. I'm not sure if I could make a case that the Atreides noble disposition was completely bred in, but once the Atreides began having the memories of their parents then it definitely was.Captain_Cackwurst wrote:georgiedenbro wrote: Another thing to consider besides general genetic lineage and being attuned to it is the Atreides noble breeding. Although Leto and Ghani were true Fremen they were still also Atreides. They may have been capable of more than Paul in terms of methods but I doubt they could help having noble desires any more than Paul could.
Ye, i still don't like this part of Herbert. What does it matter if they are nobles? Thousands of years of incest won't make people anymore knightly than others. More like the other way 'round (*cough*aerys).
The specific threat he saw was apparently automated hunter-seekers. But more broadly he saw that humanity was too huddled together and could be targeted by other threats eventually, so they had to expand vastly.Naib wrote:I'll be reading GEoD next and it's been a couple of years since I last did, but that last passage seems to imply that without The Golden Path, humanity would have been driven to extinction by thinking machines. Does that mean Leto saw some part of society breaking the restrictions of the Butlerian Jihad to create thinking machines once more. Tleilax perhaps? Ix?
Leto doesn't specifically state that this is the the threat which his metamorphosis prevented but it does seem to coincide with the vision Siona had durring her test.Naib wrote:Well that settles that.
Yeah, we've talked a bit before about whether Leto choosing that future created certain conditions that would not have existed without his influence. His oppression, for instance, may have created the Ixian threat in the first place; the larger prescient trap. But like Freak said, Leto saw some kind of imminent threat that we assume would have occurred had he not chosen the Golden Path.Freakzilla wrote:Leto doesn't specifically state that this is the the threat which his metamorphosis prevented but it does seem to coincide with the vision Siona had durring her test.Naib wrote:Well that settles that.
georgiedenbro wrote:FH's thesis is that once you know certain truths about humans and the past it will tend to align you towards a similar path the BG are on.
The BG goal is the maturation of mankind, at least it's described that way in the later books.Captain_Cackwurst wrote:georgiedenbro wrote:FH's thesis is that once you know certain truths about humans and the past it will tend to align you towards a similar path the BG are on.
Thanks for your explanations.
One question remains: Why are the BG on their path? (i am assuming right now that there 'goal' is close to Leto's goal, conserving the sisterhood and humanity, and maybe advance them)
He loves us.Why does Leto care so much for the survival of humankind?
