Chapter 05

[Freakzilla]

We tend to become like the worst in those we oppose.
-Bene Gesserit Coda

As Odrade sits in her workroom, she experiences images of sea child, her life before the Bene Gesserit. This is where she gets her sense of sanity, the ability to balance in strange seas, to maintain her deepest self. She senses sea child as a prescient warning. The breeding mistresses have tried to breed prescience out of the Atreides line with little success. Taraza had urged cautious use of her talent and felt that it only worked to warn her of danger to the sisterhood, Odrade agreed. Lately she's been having a reoccuring dream of walking a tightrope across a chasm while someone approached from behind with an axe to cut the rope. She dares not turn to see who it is. If she falls, the sisterhood falls. They have been sending out Bene Gesserit cells into the scattering and key people have been Sharing Other Memory in anticipation of being found by the Honored Matres. If they captured Sheeana and the worms they might exploit her religion. If Duncan and Teg were captured there would never again be a place to hide. She wonders if Teg had the ability to see people normally hidden and no-ships to find her on Rakis. If Teg could do it, the dangerously talented Duncan Idaho with his generations of accumulated Atreides and unknown genes might learn how too. She might be able to do it herself. It would have an unbalancing effect on their universe and send the Honored Matres on a runaway track to eliminate countless Idaho offspring. Memories of sea child restored her which she had desperately needed. Belonda enters with a report of the destruction of Lampadas, there were no survivors including Burzmalli and his hand picked defense force.

[mrpsbrk]

POV CHARACTER: Odrade

ALSO STARRING: Bellonda, Tamalane

THEMATIC ANALISYS: The chapter opens with the theme of SANITY. There is a big reference to "Dragon in the Sea" (AKA "Under Pressure") in Odrade's definition of Mental Sanity as the ability to float amongst turbulent waters. And there is another parallel in the dream, where Odrade has to balance in a tight rope.

Odrade tells us that the most important thing is the BG training, the awesome preparation which made them all that they are. How does that relate to the idea of sanity? Does the training enhances sanity?

On the other hand, the opening quote advises that maybe Odrade might become the very insanity that she opposes in the HMs, creating bigger and bigger waves instead of just floating in the waves she faces.

As a subtheme which might also be a comment on the idea of sanity, there is the idea of COSTs, including we can see the downfall of Lampadas as a cost, as something that had to be suffered in the path to sanity.

Finally, both Bellonda and Tamalane seem to depict the pitfalls where sanity can be lost: Bellonda is the agression against what seems "insane", in many ways reminding us of the HMs, and Tamalane is the distanciation, the losing of connection with the universe around.

[Freakzilla]

Revised

[Naïve mind]

If Teg could do it, the dangerously talented Duncan Idaho with his generations of accumulated Atreides and unknown genes might learn how too.

I never noticed this before, but it's right there in the book. Duncan the Atreides.

[Freakzilla]

Don't ask me why he has Atreides genes.

[georgiedenbro]

Don't ask me why he has Atreides genes.

Maybe this refers to Tleilaxu modifications? Surely the Siona gene by itself would qualify him as having Atreides genes. It can't mean Atreides by direct descent, obviously.

[Freakzilla]

Maybe so, but then there's this:

Did they dare risk releasing Duncan from the shielding of that ship? The cell
studies said he was a mixture of many Idaho gholas -- some descendant of Siona.
But what of the taint from the original?
~Heretics of Dune

[georgiedenbro]

Maybe so, but then there's this:

Did they dare risk releasing Duncan from the shielding of that ship? The cell
studies said he was a mixture of many Idaho gholas -- some descendant of Siona.
But what of the taint from the original?
~Heretics of Dune

Since there is no sign in the books that the Tleilaxu or anyone else use pure genetic engineering, by way of artificial fertilization, DNA reprogramming or construction of DNA from scratch, we have to assume that what the Tleilaxu do is gene splicing of some kind, where they mix genes from different people just like the BG do, but mechanically. It's hard to explain some of what they produce without direct engineering, except that if they were meddling directly with the DNA you'd think we'd see things like people 10 times normal strength, super fast, far above normal intelligence, and immune to poisons and such. Or maybe they just avoid these things to avoid too much notice falling on them? They seemed to escape destruction for violating the tenets of the Jihad so what they were doing must have been vaguely explainable as not artificially creating people.

Maybe if the Tleilaxu mix DNA from someone like Siona it would count as being a 'descendant...'

[Freakzilla]

I can't imagine the tank would contribute DNA. I think the engineering would be done a test tube and the tank is just like a surrogate womb... we're getting ahead of the book now.

[georgiedenbro]

I can't imagine the tank would contribute DNA. I think the engineering would be done a test tube and the tank is just like a surrogate womb... we're getting ahead of the book now.

You know I forgot this thread was still in the reading group. I'll go back and edit my previous post to remove spoilers...

[Naïve mind]

Consider how often the God-Emperor used Duncan Idaho in his breeding programme to produce Siona. I think it would be more fair to say that all Atreides carry wild Duncan Idaho genes.

[Freakzilla]

Consider how often the God-Emperor used Duncan Idaho in his breeding programme to produce Siona. I think it would be more fair to say that all Atreides carry wild Duncan Idaho genes.

Nearly all the Atreides (latter day Bene Gesserit) are descended from Duncan and Siona.

[SadisticCynic]

Maybe so, but then there's this:

Did they dare risk releasing Duncan from the shielding of that ship? The cell
studies said he was a mixture of many Idaho gholas -- some descendant of Siona.
But what of the taint from the original?
~Heretics of Dune

I never understood what it means by some if the Idaho gholas being descendants of Siona. Unless it means that some gholas have Siona genes spliced in. But that would mean that they were still making Idaho gholas after the edition that accompanied Siona. I can't recall if there is mention of such a thing. (Excluding those that the Sisterhood keeps bringing back around the time of CH:D.)

[Freakzilla]

The last one was the thirteenth. We don't know how far back they started doing this but considering the extended lifespans due to spice that could easily reach back 1,500 years. But I don't see how a ghola can be a descendant of anyone other than his original ancestors. Maybe FH just had a brain fart?

[georgiedenbro]

The last one was the thirteenth. We don't know how far back they started doing this but considering the extended lifespans due to spice that could easily reach back 1,500 years. But I don't see how a ghola can be a descendant of anyone other than his original ancestors. Maybe FH just had a brain fart?

Maybe. I guess also he could have been going in the direction of suggesting that by splicing in DNA to a ghola he could recover the serial memories of that DNA as well? If so that would make that other person like their ancestor since the memory would be in them like Other Memory. But this is really pushing it...

[lakshyasuri]

I think we are looking this too much. Leto II has been using Duncan Idaho gholas for ages and ages. He was also breeding the Atreides line to produce better genes. Remember when Duncan tried attacked Moneo but Moneo bested him easily? Despite his old age. He sais that you are just an older model or something like that.
By this time the Atreides had been modified by the God Emperor to have superior speed, health, etc.
Now in the beginning of The Heretics of Dune the BG said that they have asked the BT to modify the Duncan Idaho ghola to make him match the reflexes and speed of the current age.
To do this the BT must have used the Atreides Genes because these kinds of modifications had originated from them as per the book God Emperor of Dune