Jessica's mother

[nampigai]

*MEI

like a said, my mind is wasted - I'm gonna cut the power and go see if the Mitsubishi can find its way home!

[Freakzilla]

*MEI

like a said, my mind is wasted - I'm gonna cut the power and go see if the Mitsubishi can find its way home!

Just put one wheel in the gutter... my Caddy knows the way.

[Omphalos]

Use the force, Freak.

[SandChigger]

I think whe would have known instantly upon successfully transmuting the Water of Life who all her female ancesters were.

They were described as being links of sausages (Mmm... sausage... ), her mother would have been the very first one.

I'm not so sure I agree completely on her knowing "instantly": she was rather busy at the time with the Sharing with Ramallo.

There's mention of her taking time to get acquainted with the new (Other) memories she has been given, but nothing immediately about her inspecting her own OM.

Anyway, not only Jessica but Paul and Alia would also have known that Mohiam was their grandmother. At no time is there ever any acknowledgement of any such relationship by either. Or for that matter by any of the four (Mohiam, Jessica, Paul or Alia).

[Freakzilla]

OK, point taken. I'll rephrase: the information would have immediately been available for her to search out.

After sorting out her Shared memories from Ramallo, her mother would be the first link in her ancestral OM.

[SadisticCynic]

I think whe would have known instantly upon successfully transmuting the Water of Life who all her female ancesters were.

They were described as being links of sausages (Mmm... sausage... ), her mother would have been the very first one.

I'm not so sure I agree completely on her knowing "instantly": she was rather busy at the time with the Sharing with Ramallo.

There's mention of her taking time to get acquainted with the new (Other) memories she has been given, but nothing immediately about her inspecting her own OM.

Anyway, not only Jessica but Paul and Alia would also have known that Mohiam was their grandmother. At no time is there ever any acknowledgement of any such relationship by either. Or for that matter by any of the four (Mohiam, Jessica, Paul or Alia).

Especially considering he directly mentions the relation to the Baron several times and calls Feyd-Rautha cousin. Seems likely he'd mention Mohiam as well.

[Freakzilla]

...AND LETO MENTIONS THE NAME OF JESSICA'S MOTHER!

[Futar]

I believe at the end when Alia confronts the Baron she even greets him, "Hello grandfather"

However, with Mohiam it's just the TP confusion iirc and no mention of relation.

Why would she call out the Baron and kill him, yet do nothing in regards to Mohiam?

[SadisticCynic]

...AND LETO MENTIONS THE NAME OF JESSICA'S MOTHER!

Indeed!

[Freakzilla]

I believe at the end when Alia confronts the Baron she even greets him, "Hello grandfather"

However, with Mohiam it's just the TP confusion iirc and no mention of relation.

Why would she call out the Baron and kill him, yet do nothing in regards to Mohiam?

Good point. Neither does Paul show any such respect when he has the Qizerate kidnap Mohiam off a Guild ship and later murdered by Stilgar in DM.

[SandChigger]

I believe at the end when Alia confronts the Baron she even greets him, "Hello grandfather"

* WARNING * WARNING * POTENTIAL LYNCH CONTAMINATION DETECTED * WARNING * WARNING *

"We will fall back into space and reform," the Emperor said. "Baron, my apologies. These madmen are attacking under cover of the storm. We will show them an Emperor's wrath, then." He pointed at Alia. "Give her body to the storm."

As he spoke, Alia fled backward, feigning terror: "Let the storm have what it can take!" she screamed. And she backed into the Baron's arms.

"I have her, Majesty!" the Baron shouted. "Shall I dispatch her now-eeeeeeeeeeeh!" He hurled her to the floor, clutched his left arm.

"I'm sorry, Grandfather," Alia said. "You've met the Atreides gom jabbar." She got to her feet, dropped a dark needle from her hand.

Although, admittedly, maybe you were remembering this:

[Paul] had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: "Hello, Grandfather." The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.

[Nekhrun]

I believe at the end when Alia confronts the Baron she even greets him, "Hello grandfather"

* WARNING * WARNING * POTENTIAL LYNCH CONTAMINATION DETECTED * WARNING * WARNING *

"We will fall back into space and reform," the Emperor said. "Baron, my apologies. These madmen are attacking under cover of the storm. We will show them an Emperor's wrath, then." He pointed at Alia. "Give her body to the storm."

As he spoke, Alia fled backward, feigning terror: "Let the storm have what it can take!" she screamed. And she backed into the Baron's arms.

"I have her, Majesty!" the Baron shouted. "Shall I dispatch her now-eeeeeeeeeeeh!" He hurled her to the floor, clutched his left arm.

"I'm sorry, Grandfather," Alia said. "You've met the Atreides gom jabbar." She got to her feet, dropped a dark needle from her hand.

Although, admittedly, maybe you were remembering this:

[Paul] had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: "Hello, Grandfather." The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.

Either way, there's no reason why she wouldn't have made similar comments to her grammy.

Edit to fix quotes.

[Omphalos]

I believe at the end when Alia confronts the Baron she even greets him, "Hello grandfather"

* WARNING * WARNING * POTENTIAL LYNCH CONTAMINATION DETECTED * WARNING * WARNING *

"We will fall back into space and reform," the Emperor said. "Baron, my apologies. These madmen are attacking under cover of the storm. We will show them an Emperor's wrath, then." He pointed at Alia. "Give her body to the storm."

As he spoke, Alia fled backward, feigning terror: "Let the storm have what it can take!" she screamed. And she backed into the Baron's arms.

"I have her, Majesty!" the Baron shouted. "Shall I dispatch her now-eeeeeeeeeeeh!" He hurled her to the floor, clutched his left arm.

"I'm sorry, Grandfather," Alia said. "You've met the Atreides gom jabbar." She got to her feet, dropped a dark needle from her hand.

Either way, there's no reason why she wouldn't have made similar comments to her grammy.
Although, admittedly, maybe you were remembering this:

[Paul] had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: "Hello, Grandfather." The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.

[Futar]

i will admit i do remember that line more from the movie, but i did also read that bit about paul a couple days ago too

[Ziggy]

"That child is an abomination!" the old woman said. "Her mother deserves a
punishment greater than anything in history. Death! It cannot come too quickly
for that child or for the one who spawned her!" The old woman pointed a finger
at Alia. "Get out of my mind!"

I don't think this had anything to do with OM, Alia seemed to have some kind of TP ability... which FH never mentions again. Unless you count Paul using Leto II's infant eyes in the end of DM.

I've never managed to come to a conclusion myself over the TP issue. I did consider that she may have been using her unique talent of placing messages in the future for Paul, as she did after the battle for Arrakeen.

Paul closed his eyes, forcing grief out of his mind, letting it wait as he
had once waited to mourn his father. Now, he gave his thoughts over to this
day's accumulated discoveries -- the mixed futures and the hidden presence of
Alia within his awareness.
Of all the uses of time-vision, this was the strangest. "I have breasted the
future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you
cannot do that, my brother. I find it an interesting play. And . . . oh, yes --
I've killed our grandfather, the demented old Baron. He had very little pain."

Of course, that event raises questions of it's own. Is Paul the only person she can do this with, or does it require the recipient to be prescient? A RM would have a little of the talent. I dunno.

I seem to recall a direct reference to TP in the first book. I thought it was in the appendix but can't find it now. FZ, can you help out here? Or could be just some residual mud in my head from the Lynch movie.


Anyway, back OT, I do think it's extremely doubtful that Mohiam was Jessica's mother and I won't rehash the arguments above which are pretty much my own train of thought but someone hit on another point. If she was then I would have expected Alia, Jessica, and Paul to behave differently to her, especially after Paul and his mother aquire OM. Even before her eventual imprisonmemt and execution in CoD there doesn't seem to be any significant change in the interplay between Mohiam and her alleged relations. I'm not talking tears, big hugs, and forgiveness here but there is no hint at all that they or Mohiam have discovered any family revelations. Frank would surely have introduced some subtleties in the conversations if this was the case?

I also remember an excerpt from an interview with Frank regarding the DE, where he flat out denies this one. Yet another example of KJA mining the DE for ideas? I find that really odd, since the HLP actually went to the trouble of extracting a statement of non-canonicty from McNellis, then incorporate material from said source into their One True Canon.

[Freakzilla]

[quote="Ziggy]I seem to recall a direct reference to TP in the first book. I thought it was in the appendix but can't find it now. FZ, can you help out here? Or could be just some residual mud in my head from the Lynch movie.[/quote]

The old woman pointed a fingerat Alia. "Get out of my mind!"
"T-P?" the Emperor whispered. He snapped his attention back to Alia. "By the
Great Mother!"
"You don't understand. Majesty," the old woman said. "Not telepathy. She's
in my mind. She's like the ones before me, the ones who gave me their memories.
She stands in my mind! She cannot be there, but she is!"
"What others?" the Emperor demanded. "What's this nonsense?"
The old woman straightened, lowered her pointing hand. "I've said too much,
but the fact remains that this child who is not a child must be destroyed. Long
were we warned against such a one and how to prevent such a birth, but one of
our own has betrayed us."
"You babble, old woman," Alia said. "You don't know how it was, yet you
rattle on like a purblind fool." Alia closed her eyes, took a deep breath, and
held it.
The old Reverend Mother groaned and staggered.
Alia opened her eyes. "That is how it was," she said. "A cosmic accident . .
. and you played your part in it."
The Reverend Mother held out both hands, palms pushing the air toward Alia.
"What is happening here?" the Emperor demanded. "Child, can you truly
project your thoughts into the mind of another?"
"That's not how it is at all," Alia said. "Unless I'm born as you, I cannot
think as you."
"Kill her," the old woman muttered, and clutched the back of the throne for
support. "Kill her!" The sunken old eyes glared at Alia.
"Silence," the Emperor said, and he studied Alia. "Child, can you
communicate with your brother?"
"My brother knows I'm here," Alia said.
"Can you tell him to surrender as the price of your life?"
Alia smiled up at him with clear innocence. "I shall not do that," she said.
The Baron stumbled forward to stand beside Alia. "Majesty," he pleaded, "I
knew nothing of --"

[Ziggy]

Awesome! Thanks. Certainly no implication of a family reunion there, eh?

[gurensan]

Because they have no discernment, and probably can't tell what FH would have eventually used or had already discarded in his mind?

I've always wondered about this aspect of the alleged "notes." Are all of the notes dated? My strong hunch would be "no, not even close."

So, in theory, Keith and Bobo are free to pillage wherever and whatever they like, not caring that they might be using old, outdated notes that FH clearly didn't intend to actually use (or else discarded completely when the story went in another direction). Then, following the inevitable criticism, the Idiots Squared can always smirk and say, "we got it from the notes."

What a farce.

They've been quoted as saying that the notes were contained on old 5.25" floppies. If that's true, then ALL of the notes will be dated - files in all filesystems in all OSs since ever (down to at least 1970) all maintained the last modification date & timestamp on the file. The original floppies will all have their files dated.

Notes on paper would of course be unlikely to be dated. FH probably would've looked at them and went "Bah. Into the 'wtf' box with these. Might be a couple of gems in there for later use, but as for the rest, trash. I just don't feel like sorting them today." But then none of us knew FH personally so all that there is purely conjecture...

[Ampoliros]

We know he didn't like using a computer, and it wasn't until later in his life that he bothered with one. I think Teresa had more of an impact on his writing style than the PC did.

Mohaim wasn't Jessica's mother, otherwise it would have been relevant to tell us that. Oh wait, FH DID tell us who her mother was, out of passing, suggesting that was all the weight that needed to be put on that morsel of information.

It was the hacks who thought to make something out of nothing, becuase their universe must be a web of interconnected threads, with no thread left unsoiled, and no stray threads leading 'nowhere'.

Hint: The universe is much like web yes, but it is the empty spots as much as the threads that make it up. You cannot have a web hanging in nothing, with no strands connecting it to a support.

[Serkanner]

Tanidia Nerus ... the God-Emperor himself revealed it to us. What is there to doubt?

[D Pope]

I love you guys

[Freakzilla]

Hint: The universe is much like web yes, but it is the empty spots as much as the threads that make it up.

Isn't the vast majority or the mass and energy in the universe thought to be in the 'empty' spaces now?

[Cpt. Aramsham]

There's an article on Wired by Max Evry (who wrote the book A Masterpiece in Disarray: David Lynch's Dune) about the Dune movie script Frank Herbert wrote for Dino De Laurentiis: "I Found Frank Herbert’s Dune Script. Dune: Part Two Is Better". The article includes one very interesting tidbit:

One major change finds Mohiam instead of Ramallo acting as Reverend Mother to the Fremen, with Mohiam crying out “Abomination!” upon seeing Jessica is pregnant. The Water of Life ceremony is held, with Jessica experiencing vivid flashbacks to Mohiam’s teachings when she was a child. She awakens to find Mohiam dead and her fetus now infused with the sacred water she drank. As in Part Two, there are several pages of the fetus in conversation with Jessica: “Mother! What have you done to me? I must be born immediately! Immediately! Before I’m even born, you give me every memory of that old witch—my grandmother!”

So that explains how BH&KJA can have found a note by Frank Herbert claiming that Mohiam is Jessica's mother (they may in fact be talking about this script), without Frank ever seriously considering that as a "canon" fact.