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    arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

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    Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

    Postby Omphalos » 29 Nov 2011 22:23

    My Grand (from South Carolina) caled it "the late, great unplesantness."
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    Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

    Postby Omphalos » 29 Nov 2011 22:25

    SandChigger wrote:
    Omphalos wrote:the Butler family from the appendicies

    The who what where?!

    There is no Butler family mentioned in FH's Dune books.

    UNCLEAN!!! :angry-screaming:


    Wasn't there? See? I told you it'd fucking happen.
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    Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

    Postby Lundse » 30 Nov 2011 09:09

    Just to clarify; I do not think that one has to accept that "the DE is an in-universe text" as canon, but that given the caveats mentioned, one can. Personally, I find it interesting to toy with the idea - I would never base any sort of argument or beliefs about Frank's writing on it. Though I would, and do, let it tickle my curiosity about Dune...

    I forget these details: what was the source of the rumor (?) that McNelly and Frank were considering making a prequel about the Jihad together?

    Anyway, I think that the two were friends, and reading the interview I do not feel that Frank is merely humoring McNelly (at least not as a general rule). I also happen to find the abortion story to fit perfectly with the theme of the Jihad - a fetus is not a human being or conscious, by any stretch of the (non-religious) imagination. But killing it can still feel like murder. Why? Because we prepare for it's birth and life as a human; because we invest feelings in it. Because we value even a potential human life. This makes no logical sense, and given non-ridiculous definitions of life, a purely logical approach would dictate getting rid of a harmful pregnancy - only the mother's life is weighed.
    (One could say the machine was obviously programmed to maximize life and health, not the - unknown, and maybe unknowable - human wishes for life, health and the baby we have been preparing for).

    It is a great example of the logically right thing being wrong. It is a great example of being denied a choice, because of a wiser-than-thou-attitude from authority. It plays to the arena where we feel that the audience may have felt that they are treated as an object and their feelings and personhood are being left out of the equation - the hospital setting.

    (And suddenly this became about the Jihad story entirely, hm...)
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    Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

    Postby SandChigger » 30 Nov 2011 10:04

    Lundse wrote:I forget these details: what was the source of the rumor (?) that McNelly and Frank were considering making a prequel about the Jihad together?

    So far as I can tell, the rumor came solely from McNelly. Brian Herbert has, of course, vehemently denied it.

    Anyway, I think that the two were friends, and reading the interview I do not feel that Frank is merely humoring McNelly (at least not as a general rule).

    Note that I meant that only concerning the part where McNelly suggests that the spice is spermatic in nature. ;)

    Note also that McNelly took sole credit for the aborting-machine origin of the Jihad.

    I don't mean to cast aspersions on McNelly, but with both him & FH gone, it has become very much another case of he-said/they-say. All things considered, of course I would prefer to trust McNelly rather than any one of the Herbert Living Parasites.
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    Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

    Postby Lundse » 30 Nov 2011 10:12

    SandChigger wrote:I don't mean to cast aspersions on McNelly, but with both him & FH gone, it has become very much another case of he-said/they-say. All things considered, of course I would prefer to trust McNelly rather than any one of the Herbert Living Parasites.


    Yeah. The rumor comes from McNelly. I personally do not think it was a lie, but we cannot, of course, know how serious Frank was about the idea.

    And yes. I too prefer my Dune rumors from someone who has actual thoughts on science fiction, and is capable of having an actual discussion. Ditto my Dune speculation and pseudo-canon in-universe half-truths :-)
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    Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

    Postby SandChigger » 01 Dec 2011 10:13

    Lundse wrote:I personally do not think it was a lie, but we cannot, of course, know how serious Frank was about the idea.

    I don't think so, either. And you hit the nail on the head with the last: McNelly is telling us how HE perceived things; FH left us no indication. (Or, at least, none that we've been shown. ;) )
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    Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

    Postby ᴶᵛᵀᴬ » 07 Dec 2011 08:38

    SandRider wrote:
    >> and here is where the Living Herbert Parasites could do some real service ... are there notes
    Frank made on the DE? where is "His Copy"? annotated? high-lighted? could some-one with sense,
    honor, & dignity release such material WITHOUT heavy-editing and redaction ? <<

    >> and GODDAMNIT, what did they make McNelly sign? What was said? Where are McNelly's personal
    papers, letters, etc? <<>> which, of course, brings us to the Core of the Jihad ... that the HLP has still
    not recognized or accepted their role in preserving the Legacy of Frank Herbert as a Literary Figure (instead
    of Chief Milk-maid to the Dune-Cow) and in so doing have erred grievously in suppressing and with-holding
    historical material ... or worse, destroying it ... <<


    W.McNelly wrote:First, I had made up approximately two hundred 5 by 7 file cards (remember this was in the pre-Apple IIE days and computer spread sheets or other computer aids did not exist). All contained the same basic subject headings: Name of entry; suggested length; date assigned and to whom; date assignment made; date essay returned; final length; date copy read; copies sent to other contributors for their information, and so on; date paid; check number, and so on.

    I also established a charge account in the nearest photocopy shop; hired my daughter in law who had been a professional secretary to do a lot of typing and record keeping.

    [...]

    Shortly after I received the signed contract, I flew to Port Townsend to spend a long weekend with FH discussing the various problems which we both forsaw. I taped about eight hours of our conversations, and they now form part of the Herbert Archives at the Special Collections Library, Cal State Fullerton.

    [...]

    And with a twinkle in his eye, he pointed out that the source of the material for the DE itself- the hypothetical No room - had been assembled by Leto II himself. Thus any conflicts or contadictions could be easily ascribed to the peculiar prejudices or preferences of Leto himself. (It is one of my regrets, by the way, that the only major essay excised by the publisher was one on "Alien Life" - which told of the discovery of another No room in another galaxy . . ."



    http://tau.solahpmo.com/assets/sites/www.thestargates.com/dune/willis5.html

    Last but not least, Hal Hall said in his "Major Authors Library Collections Inventory " (mid-2006), that Herbert Papers in Fullerton took up 122 boxes and 21 linear feet of books and McNelly Papers, 22 boxes...


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        Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

        Postby ᴶᵛᵀᴬ » 07 Dec 2011 08:48

        Omphalos wrote:
        SandChigger wrote:
        Omphalos wrote:the Butler family from the appendicies

        The who what where?!

        There is no Butler family mentioned in FH's Dune books.

        UNCLEAN!!! :angry-screaming:


        Wasn't there? See? I told you it'd fucking happen.


        Destination: Void, Chap. XIII

        We understand synergy to mean the fortuitous working together of a set of components which we have assembled in our attempt to achieve artificial consciousness. Working together, the components produce more than...
        - Prudence Lon Weygand (#3), Incomplete segment from message capsule



        IT REQUIRED ALMOST twenty minutes for Prudence to regain her composure. By that time, Timberlake had run a check-list survey on every hyb-tank complex. He did it with a compulsive determination that none of them misunderstood. His function as life-systems engineer had been ignited.

        Flattery let the thing run its course and a bit longer. Bickel was fretting to get back to his work, but Timberlake needed this role reinforcement. And Prudence needed recovery time.

        Bickel finally had enough waiting.

        "Can we get back to work?" he demanded.

        "I can take the board now, Tim," Flattery said.

        Timberlake studied his instruments. "Okay. On the count."

        They shifted the board, and Timberlake sat up, a sharp ache across his back telling him how tense he had been.

        "Let's get back to the shop," Bickel said.

        "How far along are you?" Prudence asked.

        "Barely beginning," Bickel said. "Let's get cracking."

        "Is a man just a machine's way of making another machine?" she asked.

        "Just like Sam Butler's hen," Timberlake said. "Philosophy 1."


        "Philosophy some other time, huh?" Bickel suggested.

        "Just a minute," she said. "By attempting to reproduce an artificial consciousness, we're monkeying with variation of variability. Now, there's a field that all good little divines" - she nodded toward Flattery - "and most scientists have agreed by a compact of silence is the exclusive territory of God in Heaven and God's handiwork on earth - the genes."


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            Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

            Postby SandChigger » 08 Dec 2011 03:12

            A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg.

            :idea:

            HEY!!! :shock:

            Kevin J. Anderson is just shit's way of making more shit! 8-)
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            Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

            Postby ᴶᵛᵀᴬ » 08 Dec 2011 07:59

            SandChigger wrote:
            Kevin J. Anderson is just shit's way of making more shit!


            lol :lol:


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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Ibn Teg » 03 Jan 2012 10:23

                Gods below :o !

                From Dr. W. E. McNelly: (It is one of my regrets, by the way, that the only major essay excised by the publisher was one on "Alien Life"- which told of the discovery of another No room in another galaxy")


                Anyone have any more info. It always intrigued me that Alien life was only ever mentioned in passing (the retention of atomics by the Great Houses and then, later, Leto II's empire in case of an Alien threat). I have often wondered if the forces beyond the Scattering that forced the HM back into the Old Empire were an evolved Face Dancer/Alien hybrid threat (i.e., something the Tlielaxu couldn't control, &c, &c, &c). Anyone have any more info on hint about Alien life in the Dune universe?
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jan 2012 10:25

                Ibn Teg wrote:...Leto II's empire in case of an Alien threat...


                Leto II was afraid of aliens? :?
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jan 2012 10:26

                "I see why they were banned," Idaho said. "I presume the Great Convention
                against atomics is still in force and working well?"
                "Working even better since we searched out all of the Family atomics and removed
                them to a safe place," Leto said. "But we do not have time to discuss such
                matters here."

                ~GEoD
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Sardaukar Capt » 01 Mar 2012 18:57

                I think Frank saw DE for what it was. In-universe histories of the past in Dune that forms the foundation of the Dune Chronicles. Not canon but in-universe scholarly-fan histories is the way I think of it. Reading his forward to DE, he seemed to be concerned only with for forward motion of the Dune Chronicles which was his preserve to mine for his books and welcomed these speculations about Dune's past. Hell he even mentions Jehanne Butler in his forward. Is it canon? Only Frank could say and I don't think he ever would have said it because he didn't want it set in stone. In a way I think this is a byproduct of how he framed the subtext and underlying story of Dune's history. That academics from all over would be so enchanted by his mysterious back story that they would take upon an endeavor like the DE. I don't think he on his own was EVER going to go down the road to the past in Dune in any novels. He only wanted to move forward it seems. I think that is why DE exist. And I take it more as canon than any McDune book, ever!

                For me the DE is an interesting work. The only true canon to me are his works. But it is still fascinating stuff that at least has Frank's stamp of approval unlike McDune.


                Frank's forward in DE (as retyped by me):

                Here is a rich background (and foreground) for the Dune Chronicles, including scholarly bypaths and amusing sidelights. Some of the contributions are sure to arouse controversy, based as they are on questionable sources. Others round out long speculation. Specialists have had their field day here with problems geological, biological, astronomical, and mystical, with pronunciations, major biographies, histories and accounts of little-known figures. The range of topics is catholic: cf. from game for amusement to games of life and death (Cheops or Pyramid Chess to "The Assassins' Handbook").

                The history of the Financial Synod which spawned CHOAM gets it first airing in these pages. In fact, many secrets hidden in the Dune Chronicles are answered here.

                How did Irulan first gain and then arouse the displeasure of Ghanima? Who was Jehanne Butler and why does the Butlerian Jihad carry her name? What are the hidden origins of the Spacing Guild? Where did spice-trance navigational techniques develop? What was Leto II's private opinion of Holy Sister Quintinius Violet Chenoeh? Does Cheops have something in common with the three-body problem?

                I must confess that I found it fascinating to re-enter here some of the sources on which the Chronicles are built. As the first "Dune fan," I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval, although I hold my own counsel on some of the issues still to be explored as the Chronicles unfold.

                Frank Herbert
                Port Townsend, WA
                November, 1983


                From McNelly about DE ( http://sistersreadingroom.yuku.com/topic/416/Willis-McNelly-s-Commentary-on-the-DE#.T0_ZvvFvZXI )

                My first concept of the book was that it would be an A to Z encyclopedia -- Abomination to Zensunni -- that pretended to be an accurate history of the Dune universe, yet did not refer to its creator, Frank Patrick Herbert at all. Ever. In any way.

                And so it became.


                Also interesting is this written by McNelly in 1999. I don't think such a long time friend and archivist of Frank Herbert's would be lying about this. And I could see Frank collaborating on a book like this rather than write it himself because of the reasons mentioned above. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.dune/msg/a16ae9040913dfdd?dmode=source&output=gplain&pli=1

                Interesting that he says he has no written notes from Frank about it. Yet he had been collecting for decades, papers from FH for the archive at Cal St - Fullerton. Yet magically BH/KJA have a treasure trove of papers on all the subjects they've done books about.

                I am not sure that FH meant any paticular "Butler." But he was certainly
                referring to the Luddite anti-machine uprising in Britain at the beginning
                of the industrial revolution.

                As to the story of the aborted female fetus in the DE which brought about
                the Butlerian Jihad, that creation was entirely my own, as I recall, and I
                named her "Jehanne" after Joan of Arc - the warrior saint.

                I had proposed to FH that he and I collaborate on a prequel to the Dune
                saga called "Prequel to Dune: the Butlerian Jehad" or some similar title.
                FH and I had discussed writing it together and he agreed with my general
                plot outline, completed first chapter, and so on but his untimely death
                prevented us from continuing. He had been living in the LA area at the
                time and we often discussed it by phone, but I have no written notes from
                him about it, unfortunately The prequel would have followed in general
                terms the story as outlined in the DE - sketched in my notes - which I
                still have - and written in final published form by one of my colleagues
                at Cal State.


                Finally this little priceless snipit that has McNelly's name attached but I wonder if he actually took part in this letter. If the man were alive I'd like to ask him what he recalls Frank telling him about the BJ period and if he did write any of the letter below.

                http://brianpherbert.com/FAQ.html

                "THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA reflects an alternate "DUNE universe" which did not necessarily represent the "canon" created by Frank Herbert. Frank Herbert's son, Brian Herbert, writing with Kevin J. Anderson, IS continuing to establish the canon of the DUNE universe. This is being done with the full approval of the owner of the DUNE copyright, the Herbert Limited Partnership.

                "While Frank Herbert himself considered THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA interesting and entertaining, he did not refer to Dr. McNelly's derivative work while writing any of his DUNE novels. Likewise, in writing their DUNE novels (beginning with DUNE: HOUSE ATREIDES), Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson have exclusively used, and will continue to use, Frank Herbert's original notes as well as their own imaginations, and not THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA.

                "We hope that the millions of DUNE fans will continue to enjoy all of the works written in Frank Herbert's marvelous universe."

                A letter written by
                Dr. Willis McNelly,
                Brian Herbert, and
                Kevin J. Anderson


                Isn't it fascinating though that the McDune Bulterian Jihad started because an evil machine murdered a Butler baby and the DE one is a self-programmed machine aborting a Butler baby without consent. It's too damn similar yet they say they have "exclusively used, and will continue to use, Frank Herbert's original notes as well as their own imaginations, and not THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA." Makes you wonder who the liars are.
                The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
                Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
                http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

                Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
                Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

                Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

                WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby D Pope » 01 Mar 2012 23:19

                I'm likely being a little dull here but I can't understand why this keeps coming up.
                The similarities are too compelling to ignore, DE has influenced mcDune.

                Why do they so strenuously deny it, McNelly and derhacks?
                Is it some pride thing?
                "Yo, McNelly. We gonna give you a check, see?
                We gonna use your ideas, but you don't know nothin, right?
                Right?
                You ever wanna tell, we gonna be gettin that check back, and more."

                What ever happened to manion the innocent?
                Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Sardaukar Capt » 02 Mar 2012 00:21

                Reading McDune Butthole Jehad, they never made any case of religious frenzy or why humans would revolt because of one baby being killed when Dr Mengele.... I mean UrAssMus slaughtered god knows how many kids in his Nazi... I mean machine labs. I think they couldn't come up with anything themselves so they pretty much used the BJ idea from the DE. I don't much care for that theory of the BJ either but it came off a bit better.

                We'll probably never know unless someone in that family with a spine releases all of Frank's real notes they MAY still have to the archive in his name at Cal St Fullerton.

                By the way, has McNelly ever denied they took his idea for the BJ? I think McNelly died one year after it was published. I wonder if he read it or ever commented about it anywhere.
                The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
                Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
                http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

                Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
                Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

                Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

                WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby SandChigger » 02 Mar 2012 12:15

                Sardaukar Capt wrote:I don't much care for that theory of the BJ either but it came off a bit better.

                Agreed. It's a tad too simplistic. It might get you a revolt in one city, or a country, or a whole planet. But a conflict stretching across 13,000-plus worlds and nearly a century?

                Nah. Not buying it.
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Sardaukar Capt » 02 Mar 2012 13:53

                SandChigger wrote:
                Sardaukar Capt wrote:I don't much care for that theory of the BJ either but it came off a bit better.

                Agreed. It's a tad too simplistic. It might get you a revolt in one city, or a country, or a whole planet. But a conflict stretching across 13,000-plus worlds and nearly a century?

                Nah. Not buying it.


                That period of time in the Dune Universe would take years of research into AI and mans relationship with computers and machines in order to tell a proper story. The same kind of research and time and thought Frank put into his books. McDune BJ was just 4th grader fan fic and only served to setup their idiotic other books and the Dune 7 abomination. Me and my buddies in elementary school came up with better stories after Star Wars first came out when we would cut up SW trading cards and glued the cutouts onto construction paper and wrote our own comic book type story. lol.

                I don't know if BH was up to the task to research and put the care and time into writing like his father did, but now we'll never find out since that Herbert family whore'd out Dune to KJA to turn it into a crap literary franchise like Star Wars or Star Trek or any other serialized drivel of that nature.

                In the end, I'm not convinced Frank had much of any notes about the BJ other than broad strokes he needed to come up with to build the foundation of Dune. If McNelly is to be believed (and I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be given his history with Frank) then it seems Frank didn't even have a clear idea himself how or exactly who started the Bulterian Jihad or the details of what happened since he seemed to be cool with McNelly's premise on their collaboration on a future BJ book. And according to McNelly, Frank never gave him any written notes on the subject during their collaboration talks so either Frank never thought much about diving deep into Dune's past beyond what he setup already or he didn't want to share what he had with McNelly which I would find strange since he had given so much over to the man over the years.
                The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
                Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
                http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

                Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
                Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

                Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

                WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Ibn Teg » 02 Dec 2012 11:54

                Freakzilla wrote:
                Ibn Teg wrote:...Leto II's empire in case of an Alien threat...


                Leto II was afraid of aliens? :?


                From Children of Dune (London: New English Library/Vicktor Gollancz, 1976), p. 123:

                House Corrino would not risk such a holocaust. They were undoubtedly sincere in subscribing to the argument that nuclear weapons were a reserve held for one purpose: defence of humankind should a threatening "other intelligence" ever be encountered.
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Freakzilla » 03 Dec 2012 03:38

                Yeah, leto was real concerned with the alien threat...

                "I see why they were banned," Idaho said. "I presume the Great Convention
                against atomics is still in force and working well?"
                "Working even better since we searched out all of the Family atomics and removed
                them to a safe place," Leto said. "But we do not have time to discuss such
                matters here."

                ~GEoD

                I believe that was just an excuse not to give up their weapons. BTW, I believe that quote of yours was Hayt rationalizing why House Corrino wouldn't nuke Arrakis while all the Atreides were on the planet at the same time, not Leto.
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby xcalibur » 13 Apr 2016 15:37

                Frank Herbert gave his approval to the Dune Encyclopedia, but reserved the right to ignore or override it in the novels.

                ...
                Last edited by xcalibur on 18 Apr 2016 13:49, edited 2 times in total.
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Serkanner » 15 Apr 2016 13:42

                xcalibur wrote:Frank Herbert gave his approval to the Dune Encyclopedia, but reserved the right to ignore or override it in the novels.

                therefore, the DE is semi-canon. it's not 100% reliable as a source, but it can't be dismissed either.


                Of course it can be dismissed. It wasn't written by Frank, it isn't canon ... at all.
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby Omphalos » 18 Apr 2016 12:02

                Serkanner wrote:
                xcalibur wrote:Frank Herbert gave his approval to the Dune Encyclopedia, but reserved the right to ignore or override it in the novels.

                therefore, the DE is semi-canon. it's not 100% reliable as a source, but it can't be dismissed either.


                Of course it can be dismissed. It wasn't written by Frank, it isn't canon ... at all.


                Serk's right. Its interesting, but that's it. Not canon at all.
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                Re: arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

                Postby SandRider » 24 Apr 2016 19:56

                xcalibur wrote:Frank Herbert gave his approval to the Dune Encyclopedia, but reserved the right to ignore or override it in the novels.

                ...


                changing "approval" to "consent" and printing
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