arguments Against the "canonicity" of the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA

[SandRider]

go ...

[SandChigger]

- Not written by Frank Herbert.

- Incorporates ideas he probably would not have come up with or put "out there" himself.

It's not canon. Period. Get over it already.

[Freakzilla]

He said it wasn't?

[SandRider]

1) Not written by Frank Herbert.

2) Incorporates ideas he probably would not have come up with or put "out there" himself.

1) endorsed with a caveat ....
(example here would be the article on the Duncans, superseded by the Last Two books)

2) I'd like to develop some lists of these types of things - what in the DE was taken from the First Four books,
what was "speculation" or invention of the DE authors, & what was in the DE that Frank directly contradicted
in the Last Two books ...

which is probably where a discussion like this should start: the realization that the DE was produced while
Frank was still alive and writing, and falls chronologically "in between" the Chronicles ...

[SandRider]

He said it wasn't?

right, that's my point - I'd like to collect arguments for & against ...

not that I'm saying the DE is "canonical", but I think it deserves a place among the Six Books
of Frank's Dune ... I'm trying to come up with some language that expresses that ... that the
Dune Encyclopedia was written by True Dune Fans, thinkers of the same realm as Frank; that
Frank himself must have read it ... probably many times over ...

>> and here is where the Living Herbert Parasites could do some real service ... are there notes
Frank made on the DE? where is "His Copy"? annotated? high-lighted? could some-one with sense,
honor, & dignity release such material WITHOUT heavy-editing and redaction ? <<

>> and GODDAMNIT, what did they make McNelly sign? What was said? Where are McNelly's personal
papers, letters, etc? <<>> which, of course, brings us to the Core of the Jihad ... that the HLP has still
not recognized or accepted their role in preserving the Legacy of Frank Herbert as a Literary Figure (instead
of Chief Milk-maid to the Dune-Cow) and in so doing have erred grievously in suppressing and with-holding
historical material ... or worse, destroying it ... <<

[Freakzilla]

My personal stance on it is that unless it contradicts what FH wrote it can be seriously considered. I don't think I'd ever call it canon, though.

However, since it had His approval (with reservations) I consider it more canonical than what the hacks twain have written.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't have an argument against.

[Omphalos]

Wasn't there something in book V that Herbert took from the DE? I remember a thread on that some time ago; maybe over at DN

[Freakzilla]

Heretics...

Now, It's been a while since I read the DE completely but I'm thinking it would have had to be something to do with either no fields or face dancers.

Maybe a former Duncan?

[SandRider]

It's been a while since I read the DE completely

me, too - if I've ever read it "completely" ....
(also what this is about .... getting the DE stuff straight in my head before I die ...)

[Freakzilla]

I read it straight through after GEoD, even tried to learn Galach, which is a lost cause. Tried to transcribe some of Gurneys songs to guitar.

Good god, that was 27 years ago.

[Lundse]

Aside from the Frank-sorta-accepted-it-, contradictions-galore, love-for-the-universe-arguments, one must consider the form of the DE. You do not have to accept every word as canon, but can instead accept that this work exists in the canon universe.

This does not mean that everything in it is true, but rather that everything in it is either true, true to some degree, an honest mistake or some historian had a reason for skewing the facts. I am not 100% sure about this, but I don't recall anything in the DE that could no be explained or understood in these terms.

I wouldn't call this canon, though. I'd say that the DE does exist in the Dune universe, but that we cannot get any sure facts out of it beyond this.


Apart from this, we can also look at the actual friendship and understanding between McNelly and Herbert, and assume that the articles and ideas put forth by the former were at least somewhat in line with Frank's thinking. The Butlerian Jihad article always seemed a very likely scenario, with a bit of historian whitewashing, 20-20-hindsight and canonization of Jeanne...

[SandChigger]

I ... even tried to learn Galach, which is a lost cause.

Right. Because it wasn't really a "worked out" language, just a series of rules for turning English into "Galach" from one future historical period or other. In effect, it was just a complicated form of Pig Latin. (There was some grammatical stuff included in the sketch, but it was mostly sound changes with a bit of case morphology. Very little on syntax.)

Apart from this, we can also look at the actual friendship and understanding between McNelly and Herbert, and assume that the articles and ideas put forth by the former were at least somewhat in line with Frank's thinking.

I don't know; ever since reading that FH interview conducted by McNelly (esp. the way he pushes the idea of the spice as "seminal" and FH seems to agree just to be able to go on with what he was saying) I've been a bit leery of McNelly and his "vision". The problem is how much of a "somewhat".

The Butlerian Jihad article always seemed a very likely scenario, with a bit of historian whitewashing, 20-20-hindsight and canonization of Jeanne...

I don't know; I think it still suffers from the same "But AI don't know nutthin' about birthin' no babies!" silliness & implausibility as the Legends fanfic. And is there really any indication that FH meant "Butlerian" to be derived from the name of a person at the time of the Jihad?

I don't see any real reason for trying to fit the DE into the canonical Duniverse as an in-universe text. Accept it as you will; I won't.

[Freakzilla]

My personal least favorite article is about the giant clam powered ornithopters. The lack of AI doesn't equal a lack of technology. I wonder how the clams powered the jets?

[SandRider]

that this work exists in the canon universe

that's what I'm getting at - some type of (simple) language-formula (a "slogan")
that expresses the relevance and relationship of the DE to the Dune Canon ...

I don't recall anything in the DE that could not be explained or understood in these terms.

that's what I mean - a statement supported by the texts; the idea Lundse has set out here
has been arrived at before in similar discussion ... I'm just trying to "codify" it, if you will,
and sharpen the definition ...

I don't see any real reason for trying to fit the DE into the canonical Duniverse as an in-universe text.

I thought "in-universe text" was your position ?
I can certainly see a resistance to accepting the DE as an "in-universe text"
in the same class as the snippets from "other works" in the Appendix ....

Lundse wrote:
Apart from this, we can also look at the actual friendship and understanding between McNelly and Herbert, and assume that the articles and ideas put forth by the former were at least somewhat in line with Frank's thinking.
Sandchigger wrote:
I don't know; ever since reading that FH interview conducted by McNelly (esp. the way he pushes the idea of the spice as "seminal" and FH seems to agree just to be able to go on with what he was saying) I've been a bit leery of McNelly and his "vision". The problem is how much of a "somewhat".

agree.
totally.
and problem is, the 1969 "interview" is the only fucking piece of paper we have to go on ...

FH seems to agree just to be able to go on with what he was saying
(similar to Brian's behavior in the earlier interviews with Steve ....)

>> taking that train all the way to the station leads to a comparison between
Frank & Willis with the Hacks Twain .... and a comparison between the DE and McDune ...

[SandChigger]

I don't see any real reason for trying to fit the DE into the canonical Duniverse as an in-universe text.

I thought "in-universe text" was your position ?
I can certainly see a resistance to accepting the DE as an "in-universe text"
in the same class as the snippets from "other works" in the Appendix ....

No... I believe I've described it (rightly) as written from an in-universe perspective; it was created as and portrays itself as an in-universe text. In that sense, yes, it is the same as the chapter epigraphs in the books, several chapters/sections of God Emperor, and the Terminology and other appendices of Dune. But again, the difference with all those examples is that they were written by Frank Herbert.

Sorry if that wasn't clear before.

[Apjak]

I thought "Butlerian" was in reference to Erewhon by Samuel Butler.

[Freakzilla]

Did someone say it wasn't?

[Omphalos]

I thought "Butlerian" was in reference to Erewhon by Samuel Butler.

It works on multiple levels; as a reference to the author, and the Butler family from the appendicies. Although IIRC the Samuel Butler connection is conjecture. Don't think FH ever said it.

[Freakzilla]

I thought "Butlerian" was in reference to Erewhon by Samuel Butler.

It works on multiple levels; as a reference to the author, and the Butler family from the appendicies. Although IIRC the Samuel Butler connection is conjecture. Don't think FH ever said it.

I think someone here made the connection and it just seemed obvious after that.

[SandChigger]

the Butler family from the appendicies

The who what where?!

There is no Butler family mentioned in FH's Dune books.

UNCLEAN!!!

[Freakzilla]

Yeah, didn't think so either.

[Freakzilla]

I think this is just one of several examples of how Steve and Bobo's shit contaminates Dune.

[SandChigger]

The Terminology and epigraphs refer to later in-universe histories of the Jihad (e.g., The Last Jihad by Sumer and Kautman); Harq al-Ada's The Butlerian Jihad); as we've discussed before concerning the B.G./A.G. dating system, the name would have been applied by later generations, not by the people fighting it. (Did anyone call it "The Civil War" when we were fighting it? When did the name "World War I" first get used? Not until after World War II?)

If the involvement of a Butler family were presented as a later tradition, kind of a folk etymology to explain the name, that would have been more plausible and infinitely more interesting. IMHO.

[Freakzilla]

(Did anyone call it "The Civil War" when we were fighting it?...)

They still call it "The War of Norther Aggression" around here.

[SandChigger]

Same difference, though: the name was probably created after the fact, yes?