Mister Morden in Westeros (B5/ASOIAF)

[Setzer]

Let's say, for dark and obscure reasons, the Shadows have taken an interest in Westeros. For the purposes of this thread, we will assume Theon was sent home earlier, and that the Iron Islands joined the war about the same time Renly did, so all 5 Kings are in the war at the same time.

Mr. Morden travels from court to court, asking each would be King "What do you want?" Whichever candidate gives the best answer will receive the backing of the Shadows, but covertly so it appears the King's forces are winning on their own. You won't see Battlecrabs flying over King's Landing or Winterfell.

So, which king is likely to win the support of the Shadows?

I'm inclined to think the Shadows will support Balon Greyjoy. A return to the old ways of the Ironmen means plenty of endemic warfare all across Westeros, which fits in perfectly with the Shadow's philosophy of strength through conflict.

[Ampoliros]

The shadows back Joff. Already has the throne and the best claim to it. Has the power of the Lannisters behind him. More than likely to deal with the Shadows.

[A Thing of Eternity]

I'm lost, who are the Shadows?

[Aurelius Boro-Ginjo]

I'm lost, who are the Shadows?

An ancient race in the babylon 5 universe.
The bad guys

[A Thing of Eternity]

Ah, saw the show only a few times, so no opinion here!

[JustSomeGuy]

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

[Setzer]

The shadows back Joff. Already has the throne and the best claim to it. Has the power of the Lannisters behind him. More than likely to deal with the Shadows.

I don't think the Shadows would care about the legalities of Westerosi succession. Law and legitimacy is more the Vorlon's thing.

[Setzer]

I'm lost, who are the Shadows?

An ancient race in the babylon 5 universe.
The bad guys

They're one of two ancient races in Babylon 5 that influences younger species ideologically. The Vorlons believe in progress through order and cooperation, wheras the Shadows believe that growth and improvement only comes through conflict.

[Ampoliros]

As long as the Lannisters have the throne, the war will continue. I merely meant that they had already secured a centralized position of power.

Stannis and Renly won't back down, neither will the north. The Ironmen will continue to use that advantage to their own gain, but are in too weak a position to really keep the war going themselves. And the House of Dragons is rising again.

[Setzer]

As long as the Lannisters have the throne, the war will continue. I merely meant that they had already secured a centralized position of power.

No, the war will eventually end when the Lannisters have beaten all their opponents. They had broken Stannis, back stabbed Robb, and would eventually deal with the Ironborn. But Tywin largely wanted a return to the status quo under Robert where the Lannisters practically owned the Seven Kingdoms. Fighting a war to keep things the way they were doesn't fit with the Shadow's agenda.

Stannis and Renly won't back down, neither will the north. The Ironmen will continue to use that advantage to their own gain, but are in too weak a position to really keep the war going themselves. And the House of Dragons is rising again.

It doesn't matter how determined your enemy is if he's incapable of fighting. If the Shadows are helping a chosen king, the others won't stand much of a chance. How did the House of Dragons deal with the plague at Meereen? The Shadows and their servants know how to craft diseases that would leave you begging for dysentery.

[Ampoliros]

I have to say I disagree with choosing the Ironmen. It would be too obvious they were getting outside help if they launched any kind of successful long term campaign. They hit and run, they have no standing army nor the numbers/resources to field one. They have no political means or motivation to keep the war going.

The Lannisters are in a strong position, but they are not strong enough to control Westeros alone. They have enough enemies that are not interested in peace. The Lannisters also have so much money its almost mythical "Tywin shits gold" etc so people won't question where everything is coming from. The Shadows can help them just enough so that they don't win or lose and the war continues. They are also the house best suited to survive a long war.

The Baratheons wouldn't ally with the Shadows. Renly might, but they wouldn't choose him for the same reason they wouldn't choose the Ironmen. Stannis would not ally with the Shadows at all.

The Martells or the Tyrells might possibly choose to ally with them, but I doubt it.

[Setzer]

I have to say I disagree with choosing the Ironmen. It would be too obvious they were getting outside help if they launched any kind of successful long term campaign. They hit and run, they have no standing army nor the numbers/resources to field one. They have no political means or motivation to keep the war going.

Nobody in Westeros has a standing army. That's why bannermen are called up in time of war. At best, they have household knights or mercenaries on call, but Westeros just isn't economically and politically advanced enough to have standing armies. Not with its primitive feudal system and erratic seasons.

In the books, the Ironborn have been waging a campaign of conquest against the North. In book 2 they invaded Deepwood Motte and Torhhen's Square and even tried to take Winterfell. In book 4 they sent fleets to attack targets in the Reach, and even tried to attack Oldtown. They dream of the pre-Targaryen days, where they roamed free across the seas, sacking villages and conquering towns. Under House Hoare they ruled the Riverlands and much of the West coast. Their motivation is the same as the motivation of the Northmen. The Targaryen Kings who conquered them are all dead (so they think) so why shouldn't they be free again? Why not bring back the old ways where they bowed to no king but their own?

In short, the Ironborn have the will and the means to keep this war going, even without the Shadow's help. With it, who knows what they could accomplish?

The Lannisters are in a strong position, but they are not strong enough to control Westeros alone. They have enough enemies that are not interested in peace. The Lannisters also have so much money its almost mythical "Tywin shits gold" etc so people won't question where everything is coming from. The Shadows can help them just enough so that they don't win or lose and the war continues. They are also the house best suited to survive a long war.

You could argue the Tyrells are better suited, since they have the best agricultural land and the largest pool of military manpower. Food gets you through times of no gold better then gold gets you through times of no food.

The Shadows don't want endless chaos, and they don't back simple brutes. The Shadows want a period of upheaval where those they see as truly superior can claw their way to the top. I could imagine Joffrey answering Morden's question with a litany of who he'll make suffer, and when Morden says "And then what?" the brat would simply stand there slackjawed.

The Lannisters are tied to the throne by laws of Succession. They're saying Joffrey is the rightful king because he's Robert's son. The Shadows don't care about hereditary succession. It goes against their whole philosophy for anyone to stay on top based solely on who their parents are.

The Baratheons wouldn't ally with the Shadows. Renly might, but they wouldn't choose him for the same reason they wouldn't choose the Ironmen. Stannis would not ally with the Shadows at all.

The Martells or the Tyrells might possibly choose to ally with them, but I doubt it.

What makes you think they'll know beforehand what the Shadows are? All they'll see is a polite, smiling man who asks them a weird question.

[Serkanner]

Am I the only one who thinks this topic is way beyond stupid?

[Setzer]

Am I the only one who thinks this topic is way beyond stupid?

Nonsense. No one has yet quoted a thing from the Dune Prequels.

[Ampoliros]

The Shadows ally with Agammemnon-bot and roxxors Westeros

/thread.