Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

If some kind of bail-out deal is given to these guys (Ford, Chrysler and GM), I will be truly disgusted. Bailing out lending firms kind of makes sense, since they are central to the banks and therefore the problem, but the auto industry?! An industry that is already a sinking ship (at least in its current form)? You can argue the rather large job-loss all you want, but if that was really the primary issue, then why hasn't the Big Three had a problem with massive lay-offs in the past?

I say let them curl up and die, so that new technologies can be introduced to the auto industry, ushered in by innovative and non-dogmatic inventors. I also think that this kind of move should coincide with a Manhattan-project/space-program style Research & Development initiative on energy.

Quoth Jack White III:

The Big Three killed my baby
No money in my hand again
The Big Three killed my baby
Nobody's coming home again

Their ideas make me wanna spit
A hundred dollars goes down the pit
Thirty-thousand wheels are rollin'
And my stick shift hands are swollen
Everything involved is shady
The Big Three killed my baby!
Yeah, yeah yeah!

Why don't you take the day off and try to repair
A billion others don't seem to care
Better ideas are stuck in the mud
The motor's runnin' on Tucker's` blood
Don't let 'em tell you the future's electric
Cause gasoline's not measured in metric
Thirty-thousand wheels are spinnin'
And oil company faces are grinnin'
Now my hands are turnin' red
And I found out my baby is dead!
Yeah, yeah yeah!

Well I've said it now, nothing's changed
People are burnin' for pocket change
And creative minds are lazy
And the Big Three killed baby!
Yeah yeah yeah!

Released in 1999, but it's quite fitting nonetheless.

I hate to sound like an old guy, but fuck, son, where you been ? The guvmint's done bailed out the big three more times in my life than I can remember .... why should it be any different now ?

the only answer is a communist revolution.

SandRider wrote: the only answer is a communist revolution.

Or a Capitalist "revolution" where we stop behaving like communists and start letting some of these companies sink and let economic Darwinism do its work. Take the short term job loss hit and economic pain for the benefit of the long term profit that would come from forcing big changes on the market and energy sector.

Then again, it isn't my job to figure out how to make the economy stay afloat, and it certainly isn't my area of expertise.

and while I'm thinking about it --- T. Boone Pickens is full of SHIT, and I've been saying so for a loooong time. The 'world's largest windfarm' he's been pimping all over the place this year is officially "on hold". Bullshit, the whole thing's been cancelled. The conventional wisdom is that with the falling gas prices, and the election over, the nation's attention isn't going to be on windfarms the way it was over the summer, and Boone's an attention whore, so now he's out pimping CNG again. That's what the papers say, anyway, and it's a partial truth. The REAL TRUTH is that he's had a talking-to by the boys in Austin, and there just ain't no way they're gonna let him get elected governor of Texas, which is what all the media hype has really been about. (Cover of Texas Monthly, for the love of g-d ...)

But I knew he was full of shit back in the spring - he wouldn't say what kind of turbines he was going to put up. Nobody was putting up met towers on the land he claimed would be this world's largest windfarm south of Amarillo. Finally, sometime in the summer, Boone told the NYT they would be GE turbines. Well, bullshit. FP&L, Invenergy & PPM have delivery of GE turbine components in West Texas tied up for three fucking years. And he ain't even in line ....

one of the many reasons I'm glad this fucking election is over is that now, all these cocksuckers can stop letting "wind energy" fall out of their mouths - like the Yankees, go back to where-ever the hell you came from and leave us alone.

SandRider wrote:I hate to sound like an old guy, but fuck, son, where you been ? The guvmint's done bailed out the big three more times in my life than I can remember .... why should it be any different now ?

I actually didn't know that. Isn't this a little different though, coinciding with an economic recession and all? How much are they asking for? $25 Billion? Certainly they've never received this much from the guvmint...

I just think that to let them die like any other screwed-over enterprise would be helpful to humanity in general. Why are only certain businesses allowed to be immortal?

As a Canadian who has been calling for the death of Air Canada ever since the first bail-out I lived through (which I believe was two bail outs ago), I endorse A Thing of Eternity's post. BRAVO!

"The new law of corporate America seems to be survival of the unfittest. Well in my book you either get it right, or you get eliminated"

Time for capitalism to reassert itself and government to stay out of it.

I can only defend it on the grounds of saving UAW jobs ...

QFT:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Or a Capitalist "revolution" where we stop behaving like communists and start letting some of these companies sink and let economic Darwinism do its work. Take the short term job loss hit and economic pain for the benefit of the long term profit that would come from forcing big changes on the market and energy sector.

SandRider wrote:I can only defend it on the grounds of saving UAW jobs ...

I only support bailing out the auto industry if all UAW contracts are cancelled.

If it weren't for the unions, maybe they could make some money.

thank you, Rush Limbaugh.

you owe your paycheck, your workplace safety, your pension (if your company provides one), your overtime pay (unless you work for wal-mart), and your week-ends to the labor movement.

you're welcome, by the way ...

Well if the unions keep crying about it, they can look forward to the lucrative future of alternative energy...

Again, I quote Mr. Jack White:

You said The Union Forever
said The Union Forever
You cried The Union Forever
But that was untrue, girl
'Cuz it can't be love, for there is no true love

Okay, so that doesn't really apply... I just have White Stripes in my head today.

Deeey took our Jeaarbs!!!

Drunken Idaho wrote: Okay, so that doesn't really apply... I just have White Stripes in my head today.

Ouch, I pity you.

I don't get overtime, I'm salary.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Drunken Idaho wrote: Okay, so that doesn't really apply... I just have White Stripes in my head today.

Ouch, I pity you.

You shouldn't... Jack is brilliant. Meg, not so much, but you can't tell me there's no beauty in simplicity. They're minimalists.

Freakzilla wrote:I don't get overtime, I'm salary.

Me too. People always think "ooo that guy has salary, what a lucky bastard, he can miss work and still get paid" - the reality being that the only real reason a company offers you salary is if:
A: you have a job where it's impossible to really count the hours
or B: they plan on making you work lots of overtime but don't want to pay you for it.

Drunken Idaho wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Drunken Idaho wrote: Okay, so that doesn't really apply... I just have White Stripes in my head today.

Ouch, I pity you.

You shouldn't... Jack is brilliant. Meg, not so much, but you can't tell me there's no beauty in simplicity. They're minimalists.

As the great Yngwie Malmsteen once said: "whoever thinks less is more failed math class. More is always more."

Nah - I can appreciate minimalism. Just not minimalism that is also crap. It's just not my taste. To be honest - I don't think there are many intentional subtleties in his music, and minimalism really needs that if it’s going to work. I don't think he writes minimalist music because its "art" I think he writes simple pop music that the masses can digest and then labels it "art" since no-one can definitively call him on it. But that's just me. Maybe it's the opposite, and it's amazingly deep art but I'm one of the masses so I miss that and just think it's pop.

Now, lets forget this because I don't want to be accused of a Canadian once again derailing a thread into a music thread.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I don't get overtime, I'm salary.

Me too. People always think "ooo that guy has salary, what a lucky bastard, he can miss work and still get paid" - the reality being that the only real reason a company offers you salary is if:
A: you have a job where it's impossible to really count the hours
or B: they plan on making you work lots of overtime but don't want to pay you for it.

Even though I don't have to puch in or keep a time sheet, they still watch what hours I work very closely.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Drunken Idaho wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Drunken Idaho wrote: Okay, so that doesn't really apply... I just have White Stripes in my head today.

Ouch, I pity you.

You shouldn't... Jack is brilliant. Meg, not so much, but you can't tell me there's no beauty in simplicity. They're minimalists.

As the great Yngwie Malmsteen once said: "whoever thinks less is more failed math class. More is always more."

Nah - I can appreciate minimalism. Just not minimalism that is also crap. It's just not my taste. To be honest - I don't think there are many intentional subtleties in his music, and minimalism really needs that if it’s going to work. I don't think he writes minimalist music because its "art" I think he writes simple pop music that the masses can digest and then labels it "art" since no-one can definitively call him on it. But that's just me. Maybe it's the opposite, and it's amazingly deep art but I'm one of the masses so I miss that and just think it's pop.

Now, lets forget this because I don't want to be accused of a Canadian once again derailing a thread into a music thread.

Well, Yngwie Malmsteen probably likes U2 and Math Rock.

And you're on the right track with the part I emboldened. It's not amazingly deep, but there are definitely many subtlties. Even the Raconteurs have some fantastic songs (forget Steady as She Goes) that are also quite meaningful.

But as a fellow Canadian, I agree that we should get back on topic.

Hmm, so yeah, the Big Three sucks and should die a natural death.

Haha, only after I post do I Wiki Yngwie Malmsteen, and what do I find?

Complex metal music of course.

Freakzilla wrote:

SandRider wrote:I can only defend it on the grounds of saving UAW jobs ...

I only support bailing out the auto industry if all UAW contracts are cancelled.

If it weren't for the unions, maybe they could make some money.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Yeah, me too. The unions have served their purpose, now they're just greedy and power hungry.

Drunken Idaho wrote:Well if the unions keep crying about it, they can look forward to the lucrative

future of alternative energy...

Omphalos wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

SandRider wrote:I

can only defend it on the grounds of saving UAW jobs ...

I only support bailing out the auto industry if all UAW contracts are cancelled.
If it weren't for the unions, maybe they could make some money.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Mandy wrote:Yeah, me too. The unions have served their purpose,

now they're just greedy and power hungry.

y'all finished now ? y'all quite thru ?


okay, I'm not going to post this but once, I promise you.
First off, I'm speaking from the perspective of a 35 year union man, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) -(we're "international" now because of the merger with the Canadian Electrical Workers - and I've been against that forever, too, but ...) So one : I'm not talking from something I've heard union-busting Repulican/conservative/corporate/right-wing talkshow hosts/&etc spout. And two: what I have to say pertains mainly to the IBEW, and its role in your life.

I already listed the main benefits the labor movement brought to this country : mainly the idea of a fair, living wage, and the most important in my mind, workplace safety. Those of you who work offices may not appreciate this. Those of you who have ever worked a construction or industrial project will know right off the bat. I doubt there's any folks old enough on here to remember what job sites were like before OSHA. Before the sea-change in company attitude that finally realized the health and safety of the worker was more important than production. I'm gonna sound like a real old fucker here, but you kids don't world where a man's life didn't mean a damn thing to the company. If an unsafe machine took your arm off, you were shit outta luck. No workman's comp, no medical insurance, no goddamn nothing. Your buddies carried to your truck and cleaned up your blood and went back to work, and the company hired another sumbitch to man your station. This change was not brought about by loving, caring, concerned company bosses. It was forced on them by the labor movement.

Do you like your weekends ? If you are a wage laborer, do you like your overtime pay after a 40 hour week ? Thank the AFL-CIO. The establishment of the 40-hour work week, which was adopted by everyone eventually, was the sole work of the labor movement. Ask a Wal-Mart employee how they like their situation. Wal-mart not only will not allow a worker to go over 40 hours in a week, so as not to pay overtime, they classify almost all workers as "part-time", and allow less than 30 hours a week, so as to disallow benefit packages. With such a weak Union presence in the commercial sector, this practice is more and more becoming "acceptable".

Do like little children ? Would you want to see little children in sweatshops & coal mines right here in the good ole U.S. of A., like they are elsewhere all over the world ? No ? Thank the labor movement for child labor laws. (The poor kids of this country thank you , too).

And finally, from my personal point of view : Do you like your electricity ? Do you like the lifestyle you've become accustomed to, made possible only by electricity ? Thank your local IBEW lineman, who built the plants and substations, hung the lines, and goes out in the thuderstorms and ice storms and hurricanes and fixes them for you.

Everybody wants nuclear reactors now. Three new projects are a go in South Texas. Who's going to build them ? Where are you going to get the trained, skilled, experianced workers THAT CAN PASS THE FUCKING BACKGROUND CHECKS required by the government to construct nuclear reactors ? Standing outside Home Depot on a Saturday ? Don't think so. You'll need the IBEW, the Steelworkers, Ironworkers, & Pipefitters Unions.

Druken Idaho mentioned something about alternative energy. The IBEW literally wrote the book on wind turbine power distribution systems. And hydro. And coal. And nukes. The IBEW is responsible for the power distribution grid of this nation. We train the apprentices and journeymen who will construct the new systems.

"If it weren't for the unions, maybe they could make some money." Great corporate line. They'd like you to not only believe it, but teach it to your children. So they can lower the next generation's wages, but continue to pay themselves tens of millions a year. If you are a corporate CEO, that's a fine attitude to have, more power to you. If you're in the top one percent, by all means, vote your interests, and vote Republican. Bust unions. Lower wages. Safety First, as long as it doesn't get in the way of Production. After all, the most important thing in a capitalist society is Profit, right ?

In this time, with the wage & safety standards firmly in place, bad-mouthing the labor movement is like bad-mouthing the ACLU, those people who ensure your continued right to bad-mouth anything you wish.

(dismounts soapbox, returns to bad-mouthing Merritt)(Thanks, ACLU ! )

SandRider wrote:

Drunken Idaho wrote:Well if the unions keep crying about it, they can look forward to the lucrative

future of alternative energy...

Omphalos wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

SandRider wrote:I

can only defend it on the grounds of saving UAW jobs ...

I only support bailing out the auto industry if all UAW contracts are cancelled.
If it weren't for the unions, maybe they could make some money.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Mandy wrote:Yeah, me too. The unions have served their purpose,

now they're just greedy and power hungry.

y'all finished now ? y'all quite thru ?


okay, I'm not going to post this but once, I promise you.
First off, I'm speaking from the perspective of a 35 year union man, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) -(we're "international" now because of the merger with the Canadian Electrical Workers - and I've been against that forever, too, but ...) So one : I'm not talking from something I've heard union-busting Repulican/conservative/corporate/right-wing talkshow hosts/&etc spout. And two: what I have to say pertains mainly to the IBEW, and its role in your life.

I already listed the main benefits the labor movement brought to this country : mainly the idea of a fair, living wage, and the most important in my mind, workplace safety. Those of you who work offices may not appreciate this. Those of you who have ever worked a construction or industrial project will know right off the bat. I doubt there's any folks old enough on here to remember what job sites were like before OSHA. Before the sea-change in company attitude that finally realized the health and safety of the worker was more important than production. I'm gonna sound like a real old fucker here, but you kids don't world where a man's life didn't mean a damn thing to the company. If an unsafe machine took your arm off, you were shit outta luck. No workman's comp, no medical insurance, no goddamn nothing. Your buddies carried to your truck and cleaned up your blood and went back to work, and the company hired another sumbitch to man your station. This change was not brought about by loving, caring, concerned company bosses. It was forced on them by the labor movement.

Do you like your weekends ? If you are a wage laborer, do you like your overtime pay after a 40 hour week ? Thank the AFL-CIO. The establishment of the 40-hour work week, which was adopted by everyone eventually, was the sole work of the labor movement. Ask a Wal-Mart employee how they like their situation. Wal-mart not only will not allow a worker to go over 40 hours in a week, so as not to pay overtime, they classify almost all workers as "part-time", and allow less than 30 hours a week, so as to disallow benefit packages. With such a weak Union presence in the commercial sector, this practice is more and more becoming "acceptable".

Do like little children ? Would you want to see little children in sweatshops & coal mines right here in the good ole U.S. of A., like they are elsewhere all over the world ? No ? Thank the labor movement for child labor laws. (The poor kids of this country thank you , too).

And finally, from my personal point of view : Do you like your electricity ? Do you like the lifestyle you've become accustomed to, made possible only by electricity ? Thank your local IBEW lineman, who built the plants and substations, hung the lines, and goes out in the thuderstorms and ice storms and hurricanes and fixes them for you.

Everybody wants nuclear reactors now. Three new projects are a go in South Texas. Who's going to build them ? Where are you going to get the trained, skilled, experianced workers THAT CAN PASS THE FUCKING BACKGROUND CHECKS required by the government to construct nuclear reactors ? Standing outside Home Depot on a Saturday ? Don't think so. You'll need the IBEW, the Steelworkers, Ironworkers, & Pipefitters Unions.

Druken Idaho mentioned something about alternative energy. The IBEW literally wrote the book on wind turbine power distribution systems. And hydro. And coal. And nukes. The IBEW is responsible for the power distribution grid of this nation. We train the apprentices and journeymen who will construct the new systems.

"If it weren't for the unions, maybe they could make some money." Great corporate line. They'd like you to not only believe it, but teach it to your children. So they can lower the next generation's wages, but continue to pay themselves tens of millions a year. If you are a corporate CEO, that's a fine attitude to have, more power to you. If you're in the top one percent, by all means, vote your interests, and vote Republican. Bust unions. Lower wages. Safety First, as long as it doesn't get in the way of Production. After all, the most important thing in a capitalist society is Profit, right ?

In this time, with the wage & safety standards firmly in place, bad-mouthing the labor movement is like bad-mouthing the ACLU, those people who ensure your continued right to bad-mouth anything you wish.

(dismounts soapbox, returns to bad-mouthing Merritt)(Thanks, ACLU ! )

^^what he said.

Nobody said they haven't done good things in the past.

The fact is that they are now driving the companies into the ground.

What good is your union going to be when there's no work?