Defense of the New Books

[TheDukester]

The Duke over here will continue to be a jerk.

Now, now, Simon, didn't you get the memo about name-calling?

+++++

Edit: Wow, this is interesting. I thought Simon was the "civil" one.

[SandChigger]

What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.

Um...I think most of us can see that...if you're talking about Frank's books.

If, however, you're trying to include ANY of the new books in there as "great art", well...sorry, but that's bullshit. Those books appeal to a very limited set of readers...which I won't qualify in any way since I'm playing nice.

And you're going to have to cite some sort of survey or other data source if you want anyone to believe that most Dune fans are satisfied with the new books. (Sales figures don't get it.)

(Btw, I'm assuming that you're referring to me when you write "Ron" here and not Byron's father or someone else named Ron. You chose to use your real name and that's fine. I choose not to. Not that I'm trying to hide my identity or anything, but I'd prefer if you'd use my user name or "Chig" or something like that. "Ass-puckered Monkey Flea" is not an option, of course. )

fuck. my left eye just went blind ....

Sugary sweetness got to be too much for it, huh?

[Serkanner]

the fact that there are more satisfied Dune fans than disgruntled ones. That is "my point" dear Duke.

Fact? In what way have you established that as a fact? You compare online activities with a booksigning attandance. Dear God. Compare the activities between two "fan-sites" ... Dumbnovels and Jacurutu ... which of the two is more active?

[Freakzilla]

I just don't like the name calling. Surely y'all can discuss your differences without being so childish.

Who's being childish? "Not I" said the fly.

I don't get what my short comings as a speller have to do with Dune. Bad grammer is the hallmark of the internet, who am I to break tradition?

I'll keep spelling badly. The Duke over here will continue to be a jerk.
And none of this will change the fact that there are more satisfied Dune fans than disgruntled ones. That is "my point" dear Duke.

Uhhhhh I feel very trollish suddenly. Listen, I don't want to be a dick here, I'm just human. I don't see a need for the wild negativity is all.

OK, BH and KJA are destroying FH's legacy- this is the base of the arguement.

You claim it is altering the public perception of Frank's classic works.

I of course think this is wrong. First of all there are many different types of Dune fans. Scholarly ones such as some of you, and the average joe, or "joe six-pack" as Ron puts it. Dune's popularity is based on it's many levels, it has basic adventure elements for the joe and the depth (religion, politics, economics, etc) for the scholar. The suggestion that there is only one way to enjoy Dune, or a proper way is idiotic. That's like saying there is only one way to see or interpret a painting.

What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.

I'm not here to try and "win", or whatever. I just want you guys to know that just because I'm not "your" type of Dune fanatic I am one never the less, and that no matter how many mean things you want to say or do I'm not going stop being a big fan of the series.

I think OUR point is the people who enjoy Dune in, at least, a scholarly way think the new books "suck soiled ass". We don't care if action fans like them, what about us? They are not writting Dune books for us and don't care about our opinion and by extension FH's legacy. They should give a real author a chance.

[SimonH]

...

What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.
...

please don't call that shit art. look at the incredible list of contradictions that have come out of the last book alone. It is embarrising surely.

I can't believe what tossers the hacks are. They could be so much more open and respectful. They have created the hate that is regularly output on this site. An admission of error would have gone a long way and they would have lost less face than they do when they have to spend chapters explaining inconsistancies from their previous books.

[Lundse]

OK, BH and KJA are destroying FH's legacy- this is the base of the arguement.

It is the conclusion, but I think you got it right.

You claim it is altering the public perception of Frank's classic works.

Yes. And Arnoldo, Byron and other have already proven that point, by being unable to read simple phrases like 'the vision had shown only a daughter' to mean that Paul knew Leto II would be born - obviously they got that idea from a KJA novel and not Herberts writing.
So people are being influenced.

The disrespect towards Frank by reducing his universe to some second-rate Star Trek action-packing young-adult frame for silliness is another important point.

I of course think this is wrong. First of all there are many different types of Dune fans. Scholarly ones such as some of you, and the average joe, or "joe six-pack" as Ron puts it. Dune's popularity is based on it's many levels, it has basic adventure elements for the joe and the depth (religion, politics, economics, etc) for the scholar.

Dune was only action packed (in places) to get you thinking along the lines of a hero-myth, to make Paul the quintessential hero while exploding the entire idea of heroes.
Including action and evil AIs is not doing homage to Dune, continuing eg. the theme of heroes vs. society would be. They chose to go against everything Frank was trying to say instead (Norma as Deux ex Machina, Duncan being the ruler as a good thing, etc.)

The suggestion that there is only one way to enjoy Dune, or a proper way is idiotic. That's like saying there is only one way to see or interpret a painting.

Noone is saying that. We are saying the novel contains certain elements which are incompatible with a young-adult action novel style and a whole lot of the stuff KJA put in there.
It is quite easy to see what themes and thoughts Frank put into Dune, noone has been able to tell me what KJA is doing except action-scenes and bad characterizations.
We are not saying you cannot enjoy Dune as an action novel with weird ideas - feel free! But you cannot say that because KJA's work is also an action novel, it is on par with Dune - that is ignoring all our ways of reading Dune!

What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.

No, that is not what makes great art at all. Great art says something, tells a story, handles themes without making one explicit point. Great art inspires. Great art tells us something about being human.
Broad appeal does not enter into it at all - or is American Idol great art too?

I'm not here to try and "win", or whatever. I just want you guys to know that just because I'm not "your" type of Dune fanatic I am one never the less, and that no matter how many mean things you want to say or do I'm not going stop being a big fan of the series.

Feel free. But until you are willing to show us how KJA's silliness is possibly consistent with Frank's books, please do not ask us to take your claims that they can even be conceived of as canon serious.

[Freakzilla]

I've split this topic from the Member Gallery.

Simon, if you object to the title, let me know and I will change it.

[SandChigger]

I'm glad you explained that.

I logged on and saw this and wondered if someone had hijacked my account...'cause I certainly didn't remember starting no thread with a title like dat.

And I don't know nuttin' 'bout birthin' no babies, either!

[Freakzilla]

But Miss Scarlet, I'm afraid of cash cows!

[SandChigger]

I'm not going to bandy quotes with you now, Rhett, I can't worry about such things now. I'll worry about it all tomorrow....

Oh shit...it's already tomorrow!

[SandRider]

"Frankly, Frank, I don't give a damn." - Kevin

[Frybread]

Fan numbers. Not the science of those numbers but the numbers alone.
Don't cry Dukester, it's not a slight against the OH cause, I was just saying. I saw more people in Dayton showing support than there are hardcore OH posters, and a number of them bought quite a few books, one of them more than his frail arms could carry. HA-HA!

What this tells me? That you guys are all balls when your posting anonymously behind a keyboard but not one of you has the "conviction" when it comes to real world face to face debate. I would have thought that Sandchigger might be the exception, but no.

Are these book signings billed as a forum for debate? The one book signing I've been to at Dragon-Con had a security guard standing behind KJA to move people along (maybe he was expecting me?).
I asked him to print "The Outline" and more notes. Besides, I had my son with me and didn't want him to see me cause a sceen.

Next year I'll be more organized and plan on going to the panels and try to ask the pointed questions. (You got that KJA? You have less than a year to actually read the series. I suggest you memorize it.)

Your "authors" don't even have the balls to answer to FH's fans online!

I've said for years, I'll face both of them in a Dune trivia contest. They know jack shit about Dune, as is obvious from their "writting".

BH and KJA have been doing their thing successfully for a decade thus far, and will continue to do so for three more books at least.

Truley a depressing thought.

I wish they'd come to mingle with everyone online every now and again, but when the talks turn into insult-festivals it tends to turn one off.

If you do end up throwing more hardball questions at KJA, I agree, he should prepare himself. Your knowledge of classic Dune is unmatched from what I've seen. In fact, I've wondered many times why no one has ever approached you as a fact check/continuity aid. I'm sure it'd be a service you'd render free of charge judging from your enthusiasm for FH's works.

If KJA or BH did that there would be no new books because everything would be incorrect.

[Freakzilla]

Fan numbers. Not the science of those numbers but the numbers alone.
Don't cry Dukester, it's not a slight against the OH cause, I was just saying. I saw more people in Dayton showing support than there are hardcore OH posters, and a number of them bought quite a few books, one of them more than his frail arms could carry. HA-HA!

What this tells me? That you guys are all balls when your posting anonymously behind a keyboard but not one of you has the "conviction" when it comes to real world face to face debate. I would have thought that Sandchigger might be the exception, but no.

Are these book signings billed as a forum for debate? The one book signing I've been to at Dragon-Con had a security guard standing behind KJA to move people along (maybe he was expecting me?).
I asked him to print "The Outline" and more notes. Besides, I had my son with me and didn't want him to see me cause a sceen.

Next year I'll be more organized and plan on going to the panels and try to ask the pointed questions. (You got that KJA? You have less than a year to actually read the series. I suggest you memorize it.)

Your "authors" don't even have the balls to answer to FH's fans online!

I've said for years, I'll face both of them in a Dune trivia contest. They know jack shit about Dune, as is obvious from their "writting".

BH and KJA have been doing their thing successfully for a decade thus far, and will continue to do so for three more books at least.

Truley a depressing thought.

I wish they'd come to mingle with everyone online every now and again, but when the talks turn into insult-festivals it tends to turn one off.

If you do end up throwing more hardball questions at KJA, I agree, he should prepare himself. Your knowledge of classic Dune is unmatched from what I've seen. In fact, I've wondered many times why no one has ever approached you as a fact check/continuity aid. I'm sure it'd be a service you'd render free of charge judging from your enthusiasm for FH's works.

If KJA or BH did that there would be no new books because everything would be incorrect.

And? What's wrong with that? The Duniverse would be better off without them.

[Frybread]

Fan numbers. Not the science of those numbers but the numbers alone.
Don't cry Dukester, it's not a slight against the OH cause, I was just saying. I saw more people in Dayton showing support than there are hardcore OH posters, and a number of them bought quite a few books, one of them more than his frail arms could carry. HA-HA!

What this tells me? That you guys are all balls when your posting anonymously behind a keyboard but not one of you has the "conviction" when it comes to real world face to face debate. I would have thought that Sandchigger might be the exception, but no.

Are these book signings billed as a forum for debate? The one book signing I've been to at Dragon-Con had a security guard standing behind KJA to move people along (maybe he was expecting me?).
I asked him to print "The Outline" and more notes. Besides, I had my son with me and didn't want him to see me cause a sceen.

Next year I'll be more organized and plan on going to the panels and try to ask the pointed questions. (You got that KJA? You have less than a year to actually read the series. I suggest you memorize it.)

Your "authors" don't even have the balls to answer to FH's fans online!

I've said for years, I'll face both of them in a Dune trivia contest. They know jack shit about Dune, as is obvious from their "writting".

BH and KJA have been doing their thing successfully for a decade thus far, and will continue to do so for three more books at least.

Truley a depressing thought.

I wish they'd come to mingle with everyone online every now and again, but when the talks turn into insult-festivals it tends to turn one off.

If you do end up throwing more hardball questions at KJA, I agree, he should prepare himself. Your knowledge of classic Dune is unmatched from what I've seen. In fact, I've wondered many times why no one has ever approached you as a fact check/continuity aid. I'm sure it'd be a service you'd render free of charge judging from your enthusiasm for FH's works.

If KJA or BH did that there would be no new books because everything would be incorrect.

And? What's wrong with that? The Duniverse would be better off without them.

I agree. But like I said, they don't want fact checkers because more than half of their ideas would be shot down as not being consistent with FH's ideas. And Kevin would not be able to regurgitate his rejected Star Wars stories.

[Freakzilla]

Fan numbers. Not the science of those numbers but the numbers alone.
Don't cry Dukester, it's not a slight against the OH cause, I was just saying. I saw more people in Dayton showing support than there are hardcore OH posters, and a number of them bought quite a few books, one of them more than his frail arms could carry. HA-HA!

What this tells me? That you guys are all balls when your posting anonymously behind a keyboard but not one of you has the "conviction" when it comes to real world face to face debate. I would have thought that Sandchigger might be the exception, but no.

Are these book signings billed as a forum for debate? The one book signing I've been to at Dragon-Con had a security guard standing behind KJA to move people along (maybe he was expecting me?).
I asked him to print "The Outline" and more notes. Besides, I had my son with me and didn't want him to see me cause a sceen.

Next year I'll be more organized and plan on going to the panels and try to ask the pointed questions. (You got that KJA? You have less than a year to actually read the series. I suggest you memorize it.)

Your "authors" don't even have the balls to answer to FH's fans online!

I've said for years, I'll face both of them in a Dune trivia contest. They know jack shit about Dune, as is obvious from their "writting".

BH and KJA have been doing their thing successfully for a decade thus far, and will continue to do so for three more books at least.

Truley a depressing thought.

I wish they'd come to mingle with everyone online every now and again, but when the talks turn into insult-festivals it tends to turn one off.

If you do end up throwing more hardball questions at KJA, I agree, he should prepare himself. Your knowledge of classic Dune is unmatched from what I've seen. In fact, I've wondered many times why no one has ever approached you as a fact check/continuity aid. I'm sure it'd be a service you'd render free of charge judging from your enthusiasm for FH's works.

If KJA or BH did that there would be no new books because everything would be incorrect.

And? What's wrong with that? The Duniverse would be better off without them.

I agree. But like I said, they don't want fact checkers because more than half of their ideas would be shot down as not being consistent with FH's ideas. And Kevin would not be able to regurgitate his rejected Star Wars stories.

I really would like to know if they actually believe they are consistant or just don't care.

I'm not sure which would be worse though. I'd like to think they are just idiots and really do love Dune and not just greedy.

Hey, that would make a good interview question:

Are you an idiot or just greedy?

[Nekhrun]

I'm glad you explained that.

I logged on and saw this and wondered if someone had hijacked my account...'cause I certainly didn't remember starting no thread with a title like dat.

And I don't know nuttin' 'bout birthin' no babies, either!

That's funny. When I logged on I thought that it was a new thread with all of these pages already. I thought it must've really hit a nerve. Also the title reminds me of one that Omar started a few years back.

[Frybread]

Fan numbers. Not the science of those numbers but the numbers alone.
Don't cry Dukester, it's not a slight against the OH cause, I was just saying. I saw more people in Dayton showing support than there are hardcore OH posters, and a number of them bought quite a few books, one of them more than his frail arms could carry. HA-HA!

What this tells me? That you guys are all balls when your posting anonymously behind a keyboard but not one of you has the "conviction" when it comes to real world face to face debate. I would have thought that Sandchigger might be the exception, but no.

Are these book signings billed as a forum for debate? The one book signing I've been to at Dragon-Con had a security guard standing behind KJA to move people along (maybe he was expecting me?).
I asked him to print "The Outline" and more notes. Besides, I had my son with me and didn't want him to see me cause a sceen.

Next year I'll be more organized and plan on going to the panels and try to ask the pointed questions. (You got that KJA? You have less than a year to actually read the series. I suggest you memorize it.)

Your "authors" don't even have the balls to answer to FH's fans online!

I've said for years, I'll face both of them in a Dune trivia contest. They know jack shit about Dune, as is obvious from their "writting".

BH and KJA have been doing their thing successfully for a decade thus far, and will continue to do so for three more books at least.

Truley a depressing thought.

I wish they'd come to mingle with everyone online every now and again, but when the talks turn into insult-festivals it tends to turn one off.

If you do end up throwing more hardball questions at KJA, I agree, he should prepare himself. Your knowledge of classic Dune is unmatched from what I've seen. In fact, I've wondered many times why no one has ever approached you as a fact check/continuity aid. I'm sure it'd be a service you'd render free of charge judging from your enthusiasm for FH's works.

If KJA or BH did that there would be no new books because everything would be incorrect.

And? What's wrong with that? The Duniverse would be better off without them.

I agree. But like I said, they don't want fact checkers because more than half of their ideas would be shot down as not being consistent with FH's ideas. And Kevin would not be able to regurgitate his rejected Star Wars stories.

I really would like to know if they actually believe they are consistant or just don't care.

I'm not sure which would be worse though. I'd like to think they are just idiots and really do love Dune and not just greedy.

Hey, that would make a good interview question:

Are you an idiot or just greedy?

I can't say what Brian is, the man confuses me on many levels. Sometimes I think he has lost whatever dignity he once had in farming Dune out to a franchise hack.

Kevin, though, is a hack who is more interested in his own legend, IMO. He'd love to go to his grave with his fanboys regarding him as the grandfather of the Star Wars Expanded Universe and having outdone FH in the Duniverse.

[TheDukester]

Christ, that's a nice quote-ziggarut you guys are building!

[A Thing of Eternity]

I really would like to know if they actually believe they are consistant or just don't care.

I'm not sure which would be worse though. I'd like to think they are just idiots and really do love Dune and not just greedy.
[/i]

I ask myself that question every time I think about new Dune.

[Tleilax Master B]

OK, BH and KJA are destroying FH's legacy- this is the base of the arguement.

You claim it is altering the public perception of Frank's classic works.

I of course think this is wrong.

I don't understand how you can say that Simon, preek or no preek. It has not only damaged the public perception, its actually introduced erroneous information into conversations about Dune. I know I've beat this horse to death, but I think its a good example. "Artificial spice"--no where in any of Frank's books does it indicate that Tleilaxu-made spice was "artificial" or "synthetic"--do a search, and you will see that Frank simply does not use those terms anywhere. Its actual melange they produce. Now, I have had countless conversations with people without a second thought (die-hard OHers mind you), use the term "artificial spice" referring to the Tleilaxu spice. I point this out to them and they immediately acknowledge they misspoke. But there is a reason they accidently use that term--because of the crap in the prequels that portrays BT spice as exactly that. This "amal" and "ajidimal" crap. Its infiltrated Dune conversations, even with people that know better. Its changed canon and had an effect on how people discuss different aspects of Dune. And there are other examples.

This doesn't bother you, because, if I understand you correctly, "joe six pack" doesn't care about these types of details. "joe six pack" wants to see people cut in half with lasguns. But the real people who buy these products, and keep these discussions alive, and add them into the curriculum of their literature classes, and write a thesis on them, etc are these "scholars" of yours. Your so-called "scholars" don't like whats happening to Frank's Dune. And I for one can't see any reason why we should sit around on our hands and do nothing about it. I'm not just a Dune scholar; I'm a critic and a consumer. And this "product" is a rip-off and other consumers deserve to know about it.....thus all the "negativity"

[Freakzilla]

Fan numbers. Not the science of those numbers but the numbers alone.
Don't cry Dukester, it's not a slight against the OH cause, I was just saying. I saw more people in Dayton showing support than there are hardcore OH posters, and a number of them bought quite a few books, one of them more than his frail arms could carry. HA-HA!

What this tells me? That you guys are all balls when your posting anonymously behind a keyboard but not one of you has the "conviction" when it comes to real world face to face debate. I would have thought that Sandchigger might be the exception, but no.

Are these book signings billed as a forum for debate? The one book signing I've been to at Dragon-Con had a security guard standing behind KJA to move people along (maybe he was expecting me?).
I asked him to print "The Outline" and more notes. Besides, I had my son with me and didn't want him to see me cause a sceen.

Next year I'll be more organized and plan on going to the panels and try to ask the pointed questions. (You got that KJA? You have less than a year to actually read the series. I suggest you memorize it.)

Your "authors" don't even have the balls to answer to FH's fans online!

I've said for years, I'll face both of them in a Dune trivia contest. They know jack shit about Dune, as is obvious from their "writting".

BH and KJA have been doing their thing successfully for a decade thus far, and will continue to do so for three more books at least.

Truley a depressing thought.

I wish they'd come to mingle with everyone online every now and again, but when the talks turn into insult-festivals it tends to turn one off.

If you do end up throwing more hardball questions at KJA, I agree, he should prepare himself. Your knowledge of classic Dune is unmatched from what I've seen. In fact, I've wondered many times why no one has ever approached you as a fact check/continuity aid. I'm sure it'd be a service you'd render free of charge judging from your enthusiasm for FH's works.

If KJA or BH did that there would be no new books because everything would be incorrect.

And? What's wrong with that? The Duniverse would be better off without them.

I agree. But like I said, they don't want fact checkers because more than half of their ideas would be shot down as not being consistent with FH's ideas. And Kevin would not be able to regurgitate his rejected Star Wars stories.

I really would like to know if they actually believe they are consistant or just don't care.

I'm not sure which would be worse though. I'd like to think they are just idiots and really do love Dune and not just greedy.

Hey, that would make a good interview question:

Are you an idiot or just greedy?

I can't say what Brian is, the man confuses me on many levels. Sometimes I think he has lost whatever dignity he once had in farming Dune out to a franchise hack.

The best I can hope for Brian is that he is blacked out in an alcoholic stupor and doesn't really know what's going on. That would make me feel better than him doing this consciously.

Kevin, though, is a hack who is more interested in his own legend, IMO. He'd love to go to his grave with his fanboys regarding him as the grandfather of the Star Wars Expanded Universe and having outdone FH in the Duniverse.

God, hurry the day.

[TheDukester]

Kevin, though, is a hack who is more interested in his own legend, IMO. He'd love to go to his grave with his fanboys regarding him as the grandfather of the Star Wars Expanded Universe and having outdone FH in the Duniverse.

I think you nailed this one, big-time.

KJA strikes me as being very concerned about his legacy. There's no other explanation for someone who is so relentlessly trying to out-Lucas Lucas and out-Herbert Herbert.

I also think it's the main reason for stretching out his derivative space opera into seven (or whatever; I don't really care) skull-crushing volumes. He was beginning to really hear the criticism that he'd never actually written a single thing that wasn't set in someone's else's imagination. Thus, the Saga of Seven Sphincters.

[Freakzilla]

I also think it's the main reason for stretching out his derivative space opera into seven (or whatever; I don't really care) skull-crushing volumes. He was beginning to really hear the criticism that he'd never actually written a single thing that wasn't set in someone's else's imagination. Thus, the Saga of Seven Sphincters.

Which is composed soley of ideas stollen from other authors. I haven't read it but it sounds a lot like Asimov's Nightfall.

[TheDukester]

I can't say what Brian is, the man confuses me on many levels.

Me, too.

KJA I'm totally clear about: talentless, greedy hack who weaseled his way into writing fanfic with the word "Dune" on the cover.

Brian, though ... I change my mind all the time. I swing from pity (the less-than-ideal relationship with his father) to anger (selling out to a hack) to bafflement (letting the hack take over the HLP) quite often.

Overall, though, I just don't have the same level of venom for him as I do for The Hiking Dickhead. Whenever I really begin to build up a nice dislike for BH, I'm reminded that he is living proof that writing talent is not necessarily a genetic trait ... and that must hard for him to live with every day.

Plus, the guy is sort of a cypher. There's good reasons why many of us dismiss him as That Other Guy.

[Frybread]

I can't say what Brian is, the man confuses me on many levels.

Me, too.

KJA I'm totally clear about: talentless, greedy hack who weaseled his way into writing fanfic with the word "Dune" on the cover.

Brian, though ... I change my mind all the time. I swing from pity (the less-than-ideal relationship with his father) to anger (selling out to a hack) to bafflement (letting the hack take over the HLP) quite often.

Overall, though, I just don't have the same level of venom for him as I do for The Hiking Dickhead. Whenever I really begin to build up a nice dislike for BH, I'm reminded that he is living proof that writing talent is not necessarily a genetic trait ... and that must hard for him to live with every day.

Plus, the guy is sort of a cypher. There's good reasons why many of us dismiss him as That Other Guy.

I think part of the reason (or maybe MOST of the reason) I loath KJA is his arrogance. For instance, he swoops in and suddenly knows more about Dune or FH's ideas than OH's who have read and reread Dune for DECADES.

And any fan that challenges him about his knowlege of Dune is called a "Talifan" or something.

Brian, IMO, is a defeated old man who knows he will never have the talent or the respect of his father.