Defense of the New Books

DuneFishUK · Post by **DuneFishUK** » 17 Nov 2008 19:12

Simon wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote:
DuneFishUK wrote:I think it's a given that only a tiny proportion of Dune fans (nu and old) post online and, of that percentage, less post frequently. There will be prequel fans who don't post... but by the same argument there will be OH fans who don't post.
To true. Another bit of retail common sense is "For every customer who complains, there are ten who don't".
regardless, it is quite telling that the DN forum is dead. The latest book is obviously just a throw-away read because it has not sparked any discussion.

Think about the multitude of websites, discussion forums sparked by interest in FH's novels. That was, by majority, a positive reaction to the material. It is interesting the difference in the reactions of fans to the different authors. One reaction expansive, one reaction shallow.
And you may be right. I really hope not, but the argument has a ring of truth. And it's not that you guys don't have some very convincing arguments, you do. I just can't deny that I've derived enjoyment from Brian and Kevin's books. For whatever reason (a reason I'm sure a majority of you would categorize as bad taste) I really liked the expansion stuff. Myself, I chalk this up to my love of visuals, which the new books are filled with. I like to visualize and the new books lend themselves to this.

I always visualise my reading material - but I actually thought the new books were less visually inspiring than the originals. Less is more - the weight of FH's worlds enlightens visualisation much more betterer than any actual description IMHO.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 19:14

Be back later guys, have to run.

SimonH · Post by **SimonH** » 17 Nov 2008 19:33

DuneFishUK wrote:
Simon wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote:
DuneFishUK wrote:I think it's a given that only a tiny proportion of Dune fans (nu and old) post online and, of that percentage, less post frequently. There will be prequel fans who don't post... but by the same argument there will be OH fans who don't post.
To true. Another bit of retail common sense is "For every customer who complains, there are ten who don't".
regardless, it is quite telling that the DN forum is dead. The latest book is obviously just a throw-away read because it has not sparked any discussion.

Think about the multitude of websites, discussion forums sparked by interest in FH's novels. That was, by majority, a positive reaction to the material. It is interesting the difference in the reactions of fans to the different authors. One reaction expansive, one reaction shallow.
And you may be right. I really hope not, but the argument has a ring of truth. And it's not that you guys don't have some very convincing arguments, you do. I just can't deny that I've derived enjoyment from Brian and Kevin's books. For whatever reason (a reason I'm sure a majority of you would categorize as bad taste) I really liked the expansion stuff. Myself, I chalk this up to my love of visuals, which the new books are filled with. I like to visualize and the new books lend themselves to this.
I always visualise my reading material - but I actually thought the new books were less visually inspiring than the originals. Less is more - the weight of FH's worlds enlightens visualisation much more betterer than any actual description IMHO.

i'd have to agree with this comment

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 17 Nov 2008 19:35

It is personal. I am mean and I love to play games.

Nekhrun · Post by **Nekhrun** » 17 Nov 2008 20:02

Simon wrote:One big plus: the insults and name calling are all but gone. Occasionally it happens but it certainly hasn't been the thread consuming problem it'd had been. (IMHO)

Yeah how about that? Who's doing the name calling now? Not the OH.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 17 Nov 2008 20:03

Simon wrote:Some of you ... are just mean and like to play games

SandRider wrote:I am mean and I love to play games.

Ooh, are my ears burning, too!

Simon wrote:I've received several PMs and E-mails from OH members apologizing for the bad behavior of other members.

Really? Sounds like that KJA line mentioned yesterday or so.

People should only apologize for things that they themselves have done. FUCK anyone who had the presumption.

Simon wrote:I really think you guys should dispose of that label. It doesn't do your diverse views justice.

Opinion noted and dismissed for the drivel it is.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 21:15

Nekhrun wrote:
Simon wrote:One big plus: the insults and name calling are all but gone. Occasionally it happens but it certainly hasn't been the thread consuming problem it'd had been. (IMHO)
Yeah how about that? Who's doing the name calling now? Not the OH.

Your totally right. And I don't condone it. Fantomas needs to tone that stuff down. He doesn't do it often, but he does do it and I don't think it's cool.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 17 Nov 2008 21:15

Sometimes it's the ingredients you leave out that makes the sauce good.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 21:39

And as always we come to it.

SandRider wrote:It is personal. I am mean and I love to play games.

SandChigger wrote:
Simon wrote:Some of you ... are just mean and like to play games

SandRider wrote:I am mean and I love to play games.
Ooh, are my ears burning, too!

Simon wrote:I've received several PMs and E-mails from OH members apologizing for the bad behavior of other members.
Really? Sounds like that KJA line mentioned yesterday or so.

People should only apologize for things that they themselves have done. FUCK anyone who had the presumption.

Simon wrote:I really think you guys should dispose of that label. It doesn't do your diverse views justice.
Opinion noted and dismissed for the drivel it is.

Yes, when I think of "mean spirited" I think SandChigger and his lackeys.

I dislike your bully tactics (and that is just what they are) which you employ on anyone who doesn't suck up to your or see things your way. You approached me with you e-mails within a week of my getting on DN acting like a recruiter to your cause, all buddy buddy. Then when it became clear to you that I wasn't a real Dune fan

you went all fifth grade on me.

That's the sort of nonsense that I have no use for. You want to discuss, I'm game. You want to plug your fingers in your ears and go "nahnahnahyourstupidnahnahnah", forget about it.

I'm here to learn, discuss, and contribute. If you think that those aims are "drivel" then I'd say that's your problem not mine.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 17 Nov 2008 21:47

Simon wrote:And as always we come to it.

SandRider wrote:It is personal. I am mean and I love to play games.

SandChigger wrote:
Simon wrote:Some of you ... are just mean and like to play games

SandRider wrote:I am mean and I love to play games.
Ooh, are my ears burning, too!

Simon wrote:I've received several PMs and E-mails from OH members apologizing for the bad behavior of other members.
Really? Sounds like that KJA line mentioned yesterday or so.

People should only apologize for things that they themselves have done. FUCK anyone who had the presumption.

Simon wrote:I really think you guys should dispose of that label. It doesn't do your diverse views justice.
Opinion noted and dismissed for the drivel it is.
Yes, when I think of "mean spirited" I think SandChigger and his lackeys.

I dislike your bully tactics (and that is just what they are) which you employ on anyone who doesn't suck up to your or see things your way. You approached me with you e-mails within a week of my getting on DN acting like a recruiter to your cause, all buddy buddy. Then when it became clear to you that I wasn't a real Dune fan you went all fifth grade on me.

That's the sort of nonsense that I have no use for. You want to discuss, I'm game. You want to plug your fingers in your ears and go "nahnahnahyourstupidnahnahnah", forget about it.

I'm here to learn, discuss, and contribute. If you think that those aims are "drivel" then I'd say that's your problem not mine.

Some personalities are more agressive than others but I'm sorry that's your impression of the "OH movement". I'd like to hope the agressiveness extends from the grudge against the authors moreso than against their fans. You have every right to pay for and enjoy what we think is crap.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 21:54

Baraka Bryan wrote:regarding the visuals thing, Frank Herbert used a lot of dialogue and thought processes to drive his plot. you'd think this would detract from it being visually stimulating but it isn't. FH was succinct and had an amazing vocabulary in his writing, which he used to its full potential.

the hacks, on the other hand, use superfluous, ineffectual and repetitive adjectives, throw in adverbs seemingly randomly and often unnecessarily, and incorrectly string together multiple prepositional phrases in each sentence, throughout each paragraph, on each page, in every book. ( )

that's how they attempt to make it a visual stimulator, but come off at a grade 5 reading level.

I've heard this before. A friend of mine who actually knows her literature said things like this when she read House Harkonnen. She had a particular prejudice towards an often repeated description of someone's hair being the color of driftwood as well

. But yes, she made similar academic claims regarding their chosen structure.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 17 Nov 2008 21:55

Simon wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:regarding the visuals thing, Frank Herbert used a lot of dialogue and thought processes to drive his plot. you'd think this would detract from it being visually stimulating but it isn't. FH was succinct and had an amazing vocabulary in his writing, which he used to its full potential.

the hacks, on the other hand, use superfluous, ineffectual and repetitive adjectives, throw in adverbs seemingly randomly and often unnecessarily, and incorrectly string together multiple prepositional phrases in each sentence, throughout each paragraph, on each page, in every book. ( )

that's how they attempt to make it a visual stimulator, but come off at a grade 5 reading level.

I've heard this before. A friend of mine who actually knows her literature said things like this when she read House Harkonnen. She had a particular prejudice towards an often repeated description of someone's hair being the color of driftwood as well . But yes, she made similar academic claims regarding their chosen structure.

...as he tried to swallow in a dry throat.

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 17 Nov 2008 21:57

Look at it this way: you're out of your depth intellectually, and you
probably never will understand the importance of Frank's work in
American Literature. To you, Dune is just another sci-fi book, like
Star Wars comics or stuff by Orson Scott Card. It's just entertainment
for you, and the philosophical subtleties will most likely always
escape you. You also lack the historical perspective to comprehend
the influence of Frank's thinking, not only on literature, but in many
areas of academic & intellectual life. You don't "get" Dune, & I
doubt you ever will.

But, as long as you keep coming around and posting the way you
are, the more your "internet fame" stock will rise. You command
attention simply because no-one else is willing to take the abuse.

So at the very least, you'll get your own chapter in The Book, which
is something I don't think we'll say about Arnie or Fantomas ....

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 22:04

Freakzilla wrote:
Simon wrote:And as always we come to it.

SandRider wrote:It is personal. I am mean and I love to play games.

SandChigger wrote:
Simon wrote:Some of you ... are just mean and like to play games

SandRider wrote:I am mean and I love to play games.
Ooh, are my ears burning, too!

Simon wrote:I've received several PMs and E-mails from OH members apologizing for the bad behavior of other members.
Really? Sounds like that KJA line mentioned yesterday or so.

People should only apologize for things that they themselves have done. FUCK anyone who had the presumption.

Simon wrote:I really think you guys should dispose of that label. It doesn't do your diverse views justice.
Opinion noted and dismissed for the drivel it is.
Yes, when I think of "mean spirited" I think SandChigger and his lackeys.

I dislike your bully tactics (and that is just what they are) which you employ on anyone who doesn't suck up to your or see things your way. You approached me with you e-mails within a week of my getting on DN acting like a recruiter to your cause, all buddy buddy. Then when it became clear to you that I wasn't a real Dune fan you went all fifth grade on me.

That's the sort of nonsense that I have no use for. You want to discuss, I'm game. You want to plug your fingers in your ears and go "nahnahnahyourstupidnahnahnah", forget about it.

I'm here to learn, discuss, and contribute. If you think that those aims are "drivel" then I'd say that's your problem not mine.
Some personalities are more agressive than others but I'm sorry that's your impression of the "OH movement". I'd like to hope the agressiveness extends from the grudge against the authors moreso than against their fans. You have every right to pay for and enjoy what we think is crap.

Not the lot by any means. Just a few. Most Orthodox Herbertians are really level people. TMB, Hunchback Jack, Thing of Eternity, Baraka Bryan, Nekhrun, Chanilover, Sloey, yourself, I could go on... You guys don't agree with me, yet you keep it within the bounds of reason. (Well maybe not Sloey!

)

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 17 Nov 2008 22:06

If you mean me & the SandChigger {and Duke}, say so ....

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 22:19

SandRider wrote:Look at it this way: you're out of your depth intellectually, and you
probably never will understand the importance of Frank's work in
American Literature. To you, Dune is just another sci-fi book, like
Star Wars comics or stuff by Orson Scott Card. It's just entertainment
for you, and the philosophical subtleties will most likely always
escape you. You also lack the historical perspective to comprehend
the influence of Frank's thinking, not only on literature, but in many
areas of academic & intellectual life. You don't "get" Dune, & I
doubt you ever will.

I probably do focus more on the landscape/look of the Duniverse then I do the politics. Not that I don't see them, just that they aren't the main attraction in my case.

But like I said: Learn, discuss and contribute. In that order.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 17 Nov 2008 22:19

If you're here to learn, Simon, you could start with learning to spell. (Or type more slowly, since your excuse was that you type "like lightning" or similar nonsense. Or proofread before hitting Submit.) With your constant (intentional now?) misspellings you lose all credibility on any board dedicated to works of literature (besides DN, of course).

And you might try to read a little more carefully as well. By my quoting something you had written and then mentioning "drivel", it should have been clear that I was referring to your specific suggestion that we abandon the name "Orthodox Herbertarian". I made no reference to or comment on your aims or objectives.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 22:21

SandRider wrote:If you mean me & the SandChigger {and Duke}, say so ....

The jury is still out on you Sandrider. One post I think: "this guy is just a mean spirited old guy with nothing good to say.", then the next post I think: "This guy knows his shit"...

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 22:35

SandChigger wrote:If you're here to learn, Simon, you could start with learning to spell. (Or type more slowly, since your excuse was that you type "like lightning" or similar nonsense. Or proofread before hitting Submit.) With your constant (intentional now?) misspellings you lose all credibility on any board dedicated to works of literature (besides DN, of course).

And you might try to read a little more carefully as well. By my quoting something you had written and then mentioning "drivel", it should have been clear that I was referring to your specific suggestion that we abandon the name "Orthodox Herbertarian". I made no reference to or comment on your aims or objectives.

Why even waste our time addressing post to me? You hate everything about me. Nothing I say will ever seem less than idiotic to you, so why bother? Does it make you feel superior? Because it looks like clown shoes from over here.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 17 Nov 2008 22:37

Oh yeah, Arnie sends his love:

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 17 Nov 2008 22:39

This just in: Boardadmin — who is listed as "siteadmin," too, just in case there's any confusion — posted one of his usual amazing insights in the Paul of Dune thread Over There.

So I take it back: there has been a post since Thursday.

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 17 Nov 2008 22:59

Simon wrote:
SandRider wrote:If you mean me & the SandChigger {and Duke}, say so ....
The jury is still out on you Sandrider. One post I think: "this guy is just a mean spirited old guy with nothing good to say.", then the next post I think: "This guy knows his shit"...

you just peeped my game, playa ......

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 17 Nov 2008 23:23

Simon wrote:Why even waste our time addressing post to me? You hate everything about me. Nothing I say will ever seem less than idiotic to you, so why bother? Does it make you feel superior? Because it looks like clown shoes from over here.

(Were you presuming to speak for the board membership entire when you typed "waste our time" or were you just typin' like greast lightnin' again and missed the 'y'?)

Aw, shuggems, I don't hate you or everything about you.

But, yeah, as long as you keep posting idiotic stuff I'll continue to consider you an idiot.

Clown shoes? Gawd you're almost cute sometimes.

And thank Arnie, that adorable little brown turd, for the demotivator for me, OK? I love the thought of him actually taking the time to make it.

Oooh! Look at me!

(I didn't see where he posted it at DN, musta missed it. Or did he PM the link to you?

)