Defense of the New Books

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 01:00

SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote: ...

What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.
...

please don't call that shit art. look at the incredible list of contradictions that have come out of the last book alone. It is embarrising surely.

I can't believe what tossers the hacks are. They could be so much more open and respectful. They have created the hate that is regularly output on this site. An admission of error would have gone a long way and they would have lost less face than they do when they have to spend chapters explaining inconsistancies from their previous books.
Have they claimed their books are faultless? I've never seen that quote, link me please sir. I seem to remember KJA admitting that there were continuity errors in a quote I'd read...
http://www.dunenovels.com/FAQ.html

all of these are bullshit. they are all mistakes. why can't they admit it? I'd give them more respect if they did

I don't think they're all mistakes, but maybe a couple. I really need to sit down and read the entire series through again, I've only read DUNE, DM, and PoD in the last year, between talking with you gents and doing fan art I've been getting my Dune fix from sources other than the novels. (maybe I'll use Nekhrun's idea and keep little post-it notes, in order to make a more detailed evaluation of things.)

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 01:02

SandRider wrote:
Still haven't changed that avatar, Son ?
Well, that's all right, some girls like weasel faced guys, I'm sure you'll find one someday. Or pay for one someday. When your X-box is broken and your crayons snap.

Hey, saw you got your ASS handed to you over on DN.
Guess you know less about JRR Tolkien than you do about Frank Herbert, huh ?

You know, I said before I just didn't think you had the mental capacity to play over here. Now I'm thinking you don't have the mental capacity to play over there.

Is that digital yelling?

And yes, I've read those hobbit books like twice ever, not a big fan.

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 22 Oct 2008 01:43

Dammit, Son, sorry I missed you. I thought you had done shot your load and took off. But, wow, that looks like alot of bullshit up there. Sigh

I guess I'll go read it, then come back and ridicule you.

& hey, for a dollar, or just to get you to change that FUCKING avatar, if you PM me and ask nice, I'll point out some factual errors the nuduneturd made in his ASS-HANDING of you over there. They're not big, he's mostly right, but atleast you wouldn't look like quite the twat you do over here.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 01:58

SandRider wrote:
Dammit, Son, sorry I missed you. I thought you had done shot your load and took off. But, wow, that looks like alot of bullshit up there. Sigh

I guess I'll go read it, then come back and ridicule you.

& hey, for a dollar, or just to get you to change that FUCKING avatar, if you PM me and ask nice, I'll point out some factual errors the nuduneturd made in his ASS-HANDING of you over there. They're not big, he's mostly right, but atleast you wouldn't look like quite the twat you do over here.

No way old dog, I like that avi! ThunderDab made it for me, I thought he did a very good job!

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 22 Oct 2008 02:04

Just snuck over there to see if you had posted a reply. You had, and Son, I'm sorry to say it's waaaay too weak.
Seriously, just a quick glance & I can tell you that dude is going to tear into you. The main reason is, you're (note: you+are) just wrong, and obviously don't know the subject you're (note) trying to debate. Kinda like you are over here, but that's another story.

Seriously, Son, LISTEN to me, I like you, you're (huh? getting it?) dumb as the box the rocks came in, but you've got some kind of strange courage, or brain damage, and I want to help. I do. Trust me.

Get over there right now and delete that tripe you posted. Wait a minute and let me feed you some real info. I've read this guy since he got over there, and I REALLY don't like him.

All you have to do for me is CHANGE THAT FUCKING AVATAR !

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 22 Oct 2008 02:15

Lundse wrote:If that is true, then I do not speak for Chig. Or he misspoke, or you misinterpreted.

Nah, Simon got it pretty much right.

Anyone who has read and loved the originals and understood even some small part of them—a true Dune fan—cannot possibly enjoy the new McDune books. The writing is just so fucking bad, the fictional universes cannot be the same, blah blah blah, we've been through it all before. Basically, THEY DON'T GET IT.

And neither do their fans.

If you do not feel slapped in the face by what the HLP has done and continues to do you are not a Dune fan. I'm sorry if that seems harsh to namby-pamby modern PC sensibilities, but it's true. You can pat yourself on the back and say, "Oh, what does he know. I AM a Dune fan!" all you want, but you're not and probably never will be. Deal with it and get on with your life.

Anyone who was at the Dayton event, who lined up to get a book signed by the hack, or who didn't ask a biting question during the Q&A time was there because they enjoy the new books and think Kevin is a good writer. They're KJA/McDune fans. McDune is not and never will be Dune. If you like McDune, that's fine with me. But don't tell me you're a Dune fan. Because you aren't.

You can call me a closed-minded elitist all you want. I really couldn't give a damn. (Kevin did, on his MySpace blog...a fact I will always be proud of.) If you don't see the problems with these books, the defect is in your vision. If you don't know any better and don't care to learn, why should I be interested in your opinions?

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 22 Oct 2008 02:20

Dang. Simon done slunk off again.
What's with that kid ? Shit just rolls
off of him. If he high all the time ?

Ahh..

(& I/m in complete agreement
w/chig btw, not to step on your
serious post w/my bs)

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 02:28

Nah old dog, went for smokes!

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 02:43

SandRider wrote:
Just snuck over there to see if you had posted a reply. You had, and Son, I'm sorry to say it's waaaay too weak.
Seriously, just a quick glance & I can tell you that dude is going to tear into you. The main reason is, you're (note: you+are) just wrong, and obviously don't know the subject you're (note) trying to debate. Kinda like you are over here, but that's another story.

Seriously, Son, LISTEN to me, I like you, you're (huh? getting it?) dumb as the box the rocks came in, but you've got some kind of strange courage, or brain damage, and I want to help. I do. Trust me.

Get over there right now and delete that tripe you posted. Wait a minute and let me feed you some real info. I've read this guy since he got over there, and I REALLY don't like him.

All you have to do for me is CHANGE THAT FUCKING AVATAR !

Your starting to get it (Maybe the Duke will see this!

), I never claimed to be some sort of genius. In fact time and again I've been called "half retarded and half genius" by my closest friends, they weren't being mean, it's just me.

I'm not worried about NuDuneman (you are right he is a bit snippy isn't he? I figured he was one of you having a go over there.)or my spelling. Duke gave me the "your vs you're" lecture, I choose not to double check. Why try and put on airs? I spent half of high school drawing pictures and the other half suspended for a variety of idiotic acts (shows eh?!

), my spelling, grammer, and structure are excellent (thanks to my Mom the teacher)... but only when I write to my government reps in support of NORML bitching about marijuana laws (lord knows it won't do to be all "Make weed legal duder!!"

) Here, I consider myself "at ease".
Yeah I won't be winning any-spelling Bs, I'll just have to live with that.

I know nothing about fantasy books outside the Tolkien stuff and Terry Goodkind, what's to be ashamed of?

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 03:08

SandChigger wrote:
Lundse wrote:If that is true, then I do not speak for Chig. Or he misspoke, or you misinterpreted.
Nah, Simon got it pretty much right.

Anyone who has read and loved the originals and understood even some small part of them—a true Dune fan—cannot possibly enjoy the new McDune books. The writing is just so fucking bad, the fictional universes cannot be the same, blah blah blah, we've been through it all before. Basically, THEY DON'T GET IT.

And neither do their fans.

If you do not feel slapped in the face by what the HLP has done and continues to do you are not a Dune fan. I'm sorry if that seems harsh to namby-pamby modern PC sensibilities, but it's true. You can pat yourself on the back and say, "Oh, what does he know. I AM a Dune fan!" all you want, but you're not and probably never will be. Deal with it and get on with your life.

Anyone who was at the Dayton event, who lined up to get a book signed by the hack, or who didn't ask a biting question during the Q&A time was there because they enjoy the new books and think Kevin is a good writer. They're KJA/McDune fans. McDune is not and never will be Dune. If you like McDune, that's fine with me. But don't tell me you're a Dune fan. Because you aren't.

You can call me a closed-minded elitist all you want. I really couldn't give a damn. (Kevin did, on his MySpace blog...a fact I will always be proud of.) If you don't see the problems with these books, the defect is in your vision. If you don't know any better and don't care to learn, why should I be interested in your opinions?

I wasn't really looking to shower you with my opinion, I actually wanted to try and understand you. I don't understand how (by your estimation) two guys sucking at writing can't just be solved by not paying them any heed. As long as these books will be printed the authors names will be on the cover and the publication date on the interior. Any person who can read a Dune book will at least be able to see this and see that the new stuff is additional material, then after reading will make their own estimation. At this point it's just a fact of life, even if BH and KJA decided to take all of your advice and stop everything tomorrow, those 9 books (in all their printings) will still be out there being read.

Maybe in a small way I'm starting to get it (Not the OH point of view but your passion for Dune), I come here to stand up for these books you guys hate but to what end? I know there is no convincing you, and I don't really want to. Still I feel the need to speak my mind. I don't mean to troll but over here it's hard not to. Either you say stuff I agree with and there's no need to respond, or you post something where I'm like "I disagree" and all hell breaks loose. One thing is for sure, my skin has gotten a lot tougher dealing with you guys the last year

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 03:18

::crickets::

Everyone asleep? (It's 4:something in the morning here)

Goodnight all, until tomorrows brutal "Joe Pesci style" verbal beat down!

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 22 Oct 2008 03:42

Um...stopping writing is JUST THE BEGINNING!

I want them to EAT EVERY FUCKING COPY OF THEIR BOOKS!

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 22 Oct 2008 03:54

AHHH CHRist.... first off, it's fucking GRAMMAR and ..oh goddamn..

I can't ..
I just can't....take this .... fuck.

Chig - what's the Fremen form of hari-kari ? or was that the baseball
guy ? ... my god... my IQ has dropped 50 points since I stared reading
this site ....

can't even remember the damn HTML code for the colors ...
the colors ... the pretty colors ....

hey simon - wanna play x-box ? ....

Lundse · Post by **Lundse** » 22 Oct 2008 06:29

Simon wrote:I wasn't really looking to shower you with my opinion, I actually wanted to try and understand you. I don't understand how (by your estimation) two guys sucking at writing can't just be solved by not paying them any heed. As long as these books will be printed the authors names will be on the cover and the publication date on the interior. Any person who can read a Dune book will at least be able to see this and see that the new stuff is additional material, then after reading will make their own estimation. At this point it's just a fact of life, even if BH and KJA decided to take all of your advice and stop everything tomorrow, those 9 books (in all their printings) will still be out there being read.

I (and others) already told you the reasons why things have changed just by having additional books around (people get confused on terminology, Arnoldo and Byron seem unable to read simple English sentences, etc.)

Either respond to these points, or do not bother at all. Restating your beliefes, against which solid argument have just been presented, is not conducive to the debate. Just say it to the monitor, if you have to.

Simon wrote:Maybe in a small way I'm starting to get it (Not the OH point of view but your passion for Dune), I come here to stand up for these books you guys hate but to what end? I know there is no convincing you, and I don't really want to.

I am sorry, but that almost deserves an FU.
I am quite easy to convince, you just have to present a solid argument. That is all. Try it and you will find me patient to a fault, quite civil and willing to take the time to understand your viewpoint.
But as long as you simply reiterate you point of view and do not even attempt to back it up, you will find my interest waning. I will wager a guess other OH'er will be less forgiving...

Simon wrote:Still I feel the need to speak my mind. I don't mean to troll but over here it's hard not to. Either you say stuff I agree with and there's no need to respond, or you post something where I'm like "I disagree" and all hell breaks loose. One thing is for sure, my skin has gotten a lot tougher dealing with you guys the last year

Again. 'I disagree' you can say to your computer. Argue for your viewpoint or do not bother presenting it!

Post by **Freakzilla** » 22 Oct 2008 06:45

Simon wrote:I come here to stand up for these books you guys hate but to what end? I know there is no convincing you, and I don't really want to. Still I feel the need to speak my mind.

You're welcome to. But you're at a distinct dissadvantage in this.

You see, we've read these books. They suck.

Serkanner · Post by **Serkanner** » 22 Oct 2008 07:32

Simon wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Simon wrote: the fact that there are more satisfied Dune fans than disgruntled ones. That is "my point" dear Duke.

Fact? In what way have you established that as a fact? You compare online activities with a booksigning attandance. Dear God. Compare the activities between two "fan-sites" ... Dumbnovels and Jacurutu ... which of the two is more active?

The dissatisfied are always more vocal. When you eat fast food and it's good you might say "hey this stuff is really fresh today!" but who turns their car around, or calls up the local Burger King to say "Fantastic job guys!". No one.

But if you get cold fries or a stale bun your going to complain. I myself read the books for 7 or 8 years without feeling the need to go online or write letters to the authors.

Really ... and what did bring you to the on-line Dune community Simon? Are you also dissatisfied?

I have been a Dune and Frank Herbert admirerer for 25 years and that is the reason why I am part of the Dune on-line community. The fact that I hate the new dune atrocities came later.

I am confused about the less and more vocal part Simon.

First you mention that the sheer number of fans showing up on a signing is proof that there are lots more fans of atrocity dune then OH people ... a few posts later you say that the satisfied fans are less vocal then the OH people and that is why this site is more active then the dumbnovels site ... which one is it because you can not have it both ways?

Post by **Freakzilla** » 22 Oct 2008 08:33

When people buy a product, satisfaction is expected.

Not complaining is approval.

I want my money back.

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 22 Oct 2008 08:35

I want my money back.

everybody, now :

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 22 Oct 2008 09:43

Simon wrote:
Tleilax Master B wrote:
Simon wrote:OK, BH and KJA are destroying FH's legacy- this is the base of the arguement.

You claim it is altering the public perception of Frank's classic works.

I of course think this is wrong.
I don't understand how you can say that Simon, preek or no preek. It has not only damaged the public perception, its actually introduced erroneous information into conversations about Dune. I know I've beat this horse to death, but I think its a good example. "Artificial spice"--no where in any of Frank's books does it indicate that Tleilaxu-made spice was "artificial" or "synthetic"--do a search, and you will see that Frank simply does not use those terms anywhere. Its actual melange they produce. Now, I have had countless conversations with people without a second thought (die-hard OHers mind you), use the term "artificial spice" referring to the Tleilaxu spice. I point this out to them and they immediately acknowledge they misspoke. But there is a reason they accidently use that term--because of the crap in the prequels that portrays BT spice as exactly that. This "amal" and "ajidimal" crap. Its infiltrated Dune conversations, even with people that know better. Its changed canon and had an effect on how people discuss different aspects of Dune. And there are other examples.

This doesn't bother you, because, if I understand you correctly, "joe six pack" doesn't care about these types of details. "joe six pack" wants to see people cut in half with lasguns. But the real people who buy these products, and keep these discussions alive, and add them into the curriculum of their literature classes, and write a thesis on them, etc are these "scholars" of yours. Your so-called "scholars" don't like whats happening to Frank's Dune. And I for one can't see any reason why we should sit around on our hands and do nothing about it. I'm not just a Dune scholar; I'm a critic and a consumer. And this "product" is a rip-off and other consumers deserve to know about it.....thus all the "negativity"
In a way your right, the joe six packs will not notice the errors and scholarly reader will just ignore the new books, or so I'd have thought.
Seems to me from what I've read and experienced trying to introduce friends and family to Dune, it can be confusing either way. My figuring is that the joes and passive folk (passive being the casual fan) will enjoy and the scholars are bright enough to see Frank's messages. Not a perfect solution I admit (perfect would be FH alive and writting) but it is what it is.

In regards to you guys sitting on your hands, at times I really wish you guys would just ignore the new stuff, but at the same time I'm also the type of person who believes that if something really bothers you that you should do something about it. Catch 22 for me, I love your enthusiasm but hate what it's focused on. Again, different folks different strokes, I doubt I would even be on here as much if it were a "Dune-love in", I'd have probably posted a few "Dune rocks!" style post and left it at that. But since my "silent majority" was being to quiet, I feel the need to represent.

Actually, I'm glad you do "represent." Having no dissenting opinions here has quite frankly greatly slowed my participation (that and a shit load of RL work, family, etc. lately). And although I probably don't walk the "high road" quite as much as some, say Lundse for example, I do agree with him that just berating you and calling you "stupid" is rather pointless (and boring).

Nevertheless, I disagree with the idea of just "ignoring" the McDune, because you CAN"T and still have dune discussions. This is my point. Its infiltrated just about all Dune conversations like maggots on a corpse. Which ruins the conversation for me. One of the most interesting things about discussing the Duniverse is putting together all the little pieces of the puzzle, scattered throughout the books, to fill in the gaps. Now these hacks are filling it in for us, with pieces that don't fucking fit! If my miniscule little part in this drama causes JUST ONE DUNE FAN to reject the "new canon" and refuse to read them--then I consider that a victory.....

Of course, to each their own Simon--but there is also not accounting for taste

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 22 Oct 2008 09:44

I know our latest troll, Bearded Kirklander, set off an apparent trend of sweeping generalization which would make Farrakhan jealous, but there are some of us here at Jacurutu that have never paid for a KJA/BH book AND haven't read anything further from them once they read that first lousy sample. And if you try the KJA line that you must read the new books to be sure, keep in mind his obvious motive for selling them and the fact that he attempts to place the onus on the consumer for not reading them rather than himself for not being a good writer.

Like Seinfeld says, blaming the audience gets you nowhere.

Frybread · Post by **Frybread** » 22 Oct 2008 10:50

GamePlayer wrote:I know our latest troll, Bearded Kirklander, set off an apparent trend of sweeping generalization which would make Farrakhan jealous, but there are some of us here at Jacurutu that have never paid for a KJA/BH book AND haven't read anything further from them once they read that first lousy sample. And if you try the KJA line that you must read the new books to be sure, keep in mind his obvious motive for selling them and the fact that he attempts to place the onus on the consumer for not reading them rather than himself for not being a good writer.

Like Seinfeld says, blaming the audience gets you nowhere.

In Kevin's world he is such an awesome writer that it can't be his fault if an OHer doesn't like PoD or any the other new Dune novels.

Tleilax Master B · Post by **Tleilax Master B** » 22 Oct 2008 11:13

^^ It's not; your standards are just too high

(Try striking yourself in the head with a sledgehammer a few times. Then go back and read KJA's stuff; its much better after that.

)

Post by **Freakzilla** » 22 Oct 2008 11:43

Tleilax Master B wrote:^^ It's not; your standards are just too high

(Try striking yourself in the head with a sledgehammer a few times. Then go back and read KJA's stuff; its much better after that. )

Just hit yourself in the head with the hammer and skip reading the book. The effect is similar except that you won't feel dumber.

Frybread · Post by **Frybread** » 22 Oct 2008 11:45

Freakzilla wrote:
Tleilax Master B wrote:^^ It's not; your standards are just too high

(Try striking yourself in the head with a sledgehammer a few times. Then go back and read KJA's stuff; its much better after that. )
Just hit yourself in the head with the hammer and skip reading the book. The effect is similar except that you won't feel dumber.

And you'll at least have saved yourself a dozen or so hours from reading KJA's three-page chapters.

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 22 Oct 2008 11:52

Lundse wrote:Either respond to these points, or do not bother at all. Restating your beliefes, against which solid argument have just been presented, is not conducive to the debate. Just say it to the monitor, if you have to.

Word.

I'll give you props for trying, Simon, but you're really not saying anything. Nor are you attempting to address many of the points that others have brought up.

Essentially, you keep saying, over and over that "OHers and preeks like different things." Here's the problem, though: we already know that.

But, again, you gave it a shot, so I'll at least applaud the effort.