Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I picked this small point up a few years ago and would be interested in thoughts on the matter.


- In Dune, the language spoke is Galach. Only humans, no aliens.

- In the BuSab universe, Galach is spoken. Aliens.


Could it be, that in humanity's far distant future, when all mention of spice, Leto, etc. has died (see four deaths thread), humanity meets aliens and the BuSab universe results? The BuSab work being, er, I need SandChigger's help here, far-quels of Dune?

Off the wall I know, but I do remember being puzzled by Galach in the BuSab books when it would have been so easy for FH to pick any other universal language pseudo-word. And it would tie in nicely to the fact that regardless of (relatively) nascent humanity's tumults in the 5,000 years surrounding Dune, these species-defining moments, like many such moments before in humanity's history, become irrelevant and even unknown history to the species far in the future.

Raveem.

I never thought Herbert was writing one big universe with his books. He did recycle concepts quite a bit though. BuPsych and Plasteel turned up in his first novel before Dune, called The Dragon in the Sea. And Prana-Bindu body manipulation, longevity and psi powers turned up in an early novella called Murder Will In.

But you are asking if BuSab came later? Not a chance. Besides, humanity is going to remember Leto "in its bones."

I had a few moments when I considered such and idea because of the chair/beddogs, but I don't think FH meant for the two to overlap at all. I'd have to go through Whipping Star and Dosadi to be sure of where I got this impression, but I was pretty sure that the Consentiency universe was in the relatively near future, maybe within a few K years.

That said, the very reason that he threw chairdogs into the Consentiency books - and threw the term "Axolotl tank" into The Jesus Incindent - could well be to plant a little seed of wonder/doubt in the readers mind's, just to get people thinking very thoroughly about the differences between the "universes" when they attempted to reconcile them into one whole. Even if he was decidedly writing in different universes this still seems like the kind of thing FH would do.

I'm reading A HYMN BEFORE BATTLE by John Ringo right now, and their have been several refrences to Plasteel.

Intresting...

I've always thought of the "other" books as alternate or parallel universe that he used to work out key concepts for the main Duniverse. That's just my thinking though.

Freakzilla wrote:I've always thought of the "other" books as alternate or parallel universe that he used to work out key concepts for the main Duniverse. That's just my thinking though.

Thanks for that, Hyppo.

chanilover wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I've always thought of the "other" books as alternate or parallel universe that he used to work out key concepts for the main Duniverse. That's just my thinking though.

Thanks for that, Hyppo.

The difference between me and her is I do not apply that to Pinky & The Brian's books. They don't even deserve to be in a universe anywhere near Dune.

I think the proper term is far-scape.



I've never thought of them as being the same universe. The events in Dune are much later in time, so...where'd all the aliens go? And why no mention of them?

SandChigger wrote:

I think the proper term is far-scape.



I've never thought of them as being the same universe. The events in Dune are much later in time, so...where'd all the aliens go? And why no mention of them?

Norma folder her arms and blinked them into a parallel universe. Maybe she wiggled her nose, I'm not sure which, but it's in the notes.

If there were ever aliens in Dune I am sure the Landsraad would've wiped them out on first sight. Especially if they had thinking machines. Perhaps he was using these books as an experiment. Much like the Dune games were used as an experiment for concepts they were planning on putting in Command and Conquer. Seeing how people react to things like chairdogs and Axolotl tanks.

Laphtiya wrote:If there were ever aliens in Dune I am sure the Landsraad would've wiped them out on first sight. Especially if they had thinking machines. Perhaps he was using these books as an experiment. Much like the Dune games were used as an experiment for concepts they were planning on putting in Command and Conquer. Seeing how people react to things like chairdogs and Axolotl tanks.

Now one had come across any alien race in Dune, otherwise I'm sure it would have been mentioned by FH. He did, however, mention that the reason the Great Houses of the Landsraad kept Atomics was just in case there were xenos out there, who proved to be less than friendly. At least, i think thats right.

Secher_Nbiw wrote:

Laphtiya wrote:If there were ever aliens in Dune I am sure the Landsraad would've wiped them out on first sight. Especially if they had thinking machines. Perhaps he was using these books as an experiment. Much like the Dune games were used as an experiment for concepts they were planning on putting in Command and Conquer. Seeing how people react to things like chairdogs and Axolotl tanks.

Now one had come across any alien race in Dune, otherwise I'm sure it would have been mentioned by FH. He did, however, mention that the reason the Great Houses of the Landsraad kept Atomics was just in case there were xenos out there, who proved to be less than friendly. At least, i think thats right.

I think that was more of an excuse than a reason.

SandChigger wrote:

I think the proper term is far-scape.



I've never thought of them as being the same universe. The events in Dune are much later in time, so...where'd all the aliens go? And why no mention of them?

Obviously Dune is where aliens haven't been discovered yet, so even if the supposition that BuSab and Dune must lead to BuSab being after Dune. Not that I'm saying they are (the original question) but any consideration has to presuppose BuSab after Dune for continuity purposes.

Raveem.

I think that it is one thing that is unique about Dune. A universe where Humans ARE the only race out there. They are alone in the universe and this means you can concentrate on human aspects and feelings. You can show the human race in all its paranoid, arrogant and selfish glory

I think Aliens would have over complicated Dune, or they would have a hinderance. How could you have a universal super being if it is only from one race?

Lack of alien races doesn't make Dune bad, it makes it good. FH only needed one race to make it interesting, unlike Star Wars and Star Trek where there are so many races that the creators ran out of ideas on how to make them look different.

Sole Man wrote:I'm reading A HYMN BEFORE BATTLE by John Ringo right now, and their have been several refrences to Plasteel.

Intresting...

Authors steal concepts like this all the time, Sloey. Herbert wrote the Dragon in the Sea in 1955 and published it serially in '55 and '56. Harlan Ellison wrote a review of that book in Galaxy, IIRC, then in late 1956 stole the idea of plasteel and used it in one of his own short stories. The Oxford Dictionary SF Citation Project gives a bunch of other citations for that word too, other than Herbert and Ellison.

Laphtiya wrote:I think that it is one thing that is unique about Dune.

I agree that this is an important point, but it's not unique in the SF realm. The universes of Battlestar Galactica and Serenity, just to name two, are also conspicuously alien-free. And there's a number of examples in literature, too.

I'd guess that the decision to add little green men or not is one of the first choices an SF author has to make when he begins a new project.

Raveem wrote:Obviously Dune is where aliens haven't been discovered yet, so even if the supposition that BuSab and Dune must lead to BuSab being after Dune. Not that I'm saying they are (the original question) but any consideration has to presuppose BuSab after Dune for continuity purposes.

It's been a year or two since I read any of the ConSentiency stories but weren't the aliens from relatively near stars? (I seem to remember Tau Ceti being mentioned? That's only 12 LY.) Kinda hard to explain how humans could have overlooked them, with the Imperium stretching out over most of nearby space.

(Of course, Dunizens seem to have lost track of Earth, only 4.2 LY from Ecaz. )

SandChigger wrote:

Raveem wrote:Obviously Dune is where aliens haven't been discovered yet, so even if the supposition that BuSab and Dune must lead to BuSab being after Dune. Not that I'm saying they are (the original question) but any consideration has to presuppose BuSab after Dune for continuity purposes.

It's been a year or two since I read any of the ConSentiency stories but weren't the aliens from relatively near stars? (I seem to remember Tau Ceti being mentioned? That's only 12 LY.) Kinda hard to explain how humans could have overlooked them, with the Imperium stretching out over most of nearby space.

(Of course, Dunizens seem to have lost track of Earth, only 4.2 LY from Ecaz. )

I think that might be what gave me the near-future impression.

TheDukester wrote:

Laphtiya wrote:I think that it is one thing that is unique about Dune.

I agree that this is an important point, but it's not unique in the SF realm. The universes of Battlestar Galactica and Serenity, just to name two, are also conspicuously alien-free.

Yeah but both of those came after Dune

My argument was not with the chronology, but with the word "unique," means means "one of a kind." Dune's lack of aliens is not unique.

(And you're not saying Dune was the first SF series to be alien-free, are you? That's not going to fly, either)

Lots of Human-only Science Fiction out there. Look at Asimov's Empire books for a prominant example that predates Dune.