Male in Other Memories
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Male in Other Memories
I don't know if this has been talked about yet (I'm relatively new), but I was under the impression that only the female lineage was present in the Other Memories (I think it says so a couple times overall, at least once in Dune, but I can't find any quotes right now).
But near the end of Heretics of Dune, after Odrade absorbed the memories of Taraza, she finds the memory of Teg. "She saw the Bashar there in her own assemblage of Other Memories: the father she had never really known"
So why is he there when no other male is? Even Paul didn't show in any Other Memories except Leto II, but he had all of both sides anyway.
But near the end of Heretics of Dune, after Odrade absorbed the memories of Taraza, she finds the memory of Teg. "She saw the Bashar there in her own assemblage of Other Memories: the father she had never really known"
So why is he there when no other male is? Even Paul didn't show in any Other Memories except Leto II, but he had all of both sides anyway.
- SandChigger
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Oh, it's been DONE TO DEATH (I'm relatively old!)!!
Just kidding!
Women cannot access the memories of their male ancestors without risking possession by those personalities. BUT they can access their female ancestors memories of those men.
I don't remember right off the surrounding context of the passage you quote from Heretics, but hopefully the above covers it? (Will check now.)
Just kidding!
Women cannot access the memories of their male ancestors without risking possession by those personalities. BUT they can access their female ancestors memories of those men.
I don't remember right off the surrounding context of the passage you quote from Heretics, but hopefully the above covers it? (Will check now.)
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No, that's correct.Secher_Nbiw wrote:correct me if i'm wrong, but i was under the impression that females could only access memories of males, not male memories, the exception being the pre-born (as evidenced by the Abomination Alia). or did i miss something?
Go back to your daily lives, nothing insane has happened to the Duniverse(aside from the new books, but I don't count those as the Duniverse).
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whoa whoa whoa, read your first sentence slowly and please edit! I was so confused for a second!Secher_Nbiw wrote:correct me if i'm wrong, but i was under the impression that females could only access memories of males, not male memories, the exception being the pre-born (as evidenced by the Abomination Alia). or did i miss something?
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Reverend Mothers have access to both male and female Other Memories, they choose not to access the male OM becuase doing so results in possession by the dominant male ancestor.
The preborn access both because they haven't been trained not to, it is forced on them along with their own consciousness.
The preborn access both because they haven't been trained not to, it is forced on them along with their own consciousness.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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I've actually been curious about this... what evidence do you have they can go there but choose not to?Freakzilla wrote:Reverend Mothers have access to both male and female Other Memories, they choose not to access the male OM becuase doing so results in possession by the dominant male ancestor.
The preborn access both because they haven't been trained not to, it is forced on them along with their own consciousness.
The only passage i can remember is where jessica shows the place to paul, she says "that is the place we cannot go". To me, thats not too dissimilar to me pointing at the moon and saying "thats is the place we cannot go".
There's probably a quote somewhere but i always preferred to think that it was, as much as anything, a physical impossibility as well as a reluctance.
Not trying to play devils advocate, its just not the way i`ve always thought of it.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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No, in my opinion, it's the same as taking you to lunar orbit and saying you have to land yourself.loremaster wrote:I've actually been curious about this... what evidence do you have they can go there but choose not to?Freakzilla wrote:Reverend Mothers have access to both male and female Other Memories, they choose not to access the male OM becuase doing so results in possession by the dominant male ancestor.
The preborn access both because they haven't been trained not to, it is forced on them along with their own consciousness.
The only passage i can remember is where jessica shows the place to paul, she says "that is the place we cannot go". To me, thats not too dissimilar to me pointing at the moon and saying "thats is the place we cannot go".
There's probably a quote somewhere but i always preferred to think that it was, as much as anything, a physical impossibility as well as a reluctance.
Not trying to play devils advocate, its just not the way i`ve always thought of it.
But mainly it's just common sense. We all have OM, we just don't know how to access it. RMs have learned how to access the male side and avoid the female side. This is the whole purpose of the KH, to be able to access both.
If I can think of a better quote to back this up other than Jessica showing Paul where the male OMs were, I'll post it. But that was the main one I think of.
It has a lot to do with the Male/Female - giver/taker speach Paul gives after that too.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Freak is right...
What is special about the BG is that they can 'readily' access OM. What is special about the KH is that he can 'readily' access the memories of his MALE lineage without losing his gobshite freaking mind...
The Female is the Giver, and the Male is the Taker. The female psyche is terrified of the male 'Taker'- it's just incompatible for their own - hence the danger of possession. What's interesting is that Paul can safely access the Giver instinct - so I guess he's supposed to be a little bit androgynous
What is special about the BG is that they can 'readily' access OM. What is special about the KH is that he can 'readily' access the memories of his MALE lineage without losing his gobshite freaking mind...
The Female is the Giver, and the Male is the Taker. The female psyche is terrified of the male 'Taker'- it's just incompatible for their own - hence the danger of possession. What's interesting is that Paul can safely access the Giver instinct - so I guess he's supposed to be a little bit androgynous
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He is the fulcrum.halcyo wrote:Freak is right...The Female is the Giver, and the Male is the Taker. The female psyche is terrified of the male 'Taker'- it's just incompatible for their own - hence the danger of possession. What's interesting is that Paul can safely access the Giver instinct - so I guess he's supposed to be a little bit androgynous
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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To me, that reads a bit ambiguous. "No Truthsayer can see" implies inability, but "repelled, terrorized" kinda takes it the other way."The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory—in her body's memory. We look down so many avenues of the past...but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot—into both feminine and masculine pasts."
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I think that Reverend Mothers are TRAINED to fear it, so that they don't sink into 'abomination' as the Pre-Born do. It's obviously not an 'innate fear', because it is apparently a very seductive path, as it is to someone like Alia, Leto II, or Ghanima. I think there's even a mention somewhere during Alia's possession that one of her biggest problems is that she wasn't brought up and trained to have the same inhibitions to utilize certain capabilities that other Reverend Mothers have.
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She was particularly bitter at the way the Sisterhood's mythology hadhalcyo wrote:I think that Reverend Mothers are TRAINED to fear it, so that they don't sink into 'abomination' as the Pre-Born do. It's obviously not an 'innate fear', because it is apparently a very seductive path, as it is to someone like Alia, Leto II, or Ghanima. I think there's even a mention somewhere during Alia's possession that one of her biggest problems is that she wasn't brought up and trained to have the same inhibitions to utilize certain capabilities that other Reverend Mothers have.
trapped Alia. Fear built on fear! The habits of generations had imprinted the
fate of Abomination upon her. Alia had known no hope. Of course she'd succumbed.
Her fate made the accomplishment of Leto and Ghanima even more difficult to
face. Not one way out of the trap, but two. Ghanima's victory over the inner
lives and her insistence that Alia deserved only pity were the bitterest things
of all. Hypnotic suppression under stress linked to the wooing of a benign
ancestor had saved Ghanima. They might have saved Alia. But without hope,
nothing had been attempted until it was too late. Alia's water had been poured
upon the sand.
~Children of Dune
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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'Chig raises another interesting point i once meant to mention.
At one point, early in dune, (WITHOUT the benefit of later texts) the traits of Truthsense, prescience, and other Memory all seem linked... true we dont know to what extent, since they were trying to achieve all three in paul. H/E we know there are truthsayers without pr/OM. also OM without pr/TR and finally Prescients w/o TR/OM.
OR
As with Ancestral memory (all RM's in Dune) and Other Memory (later books). Do we think Frank's concept of these powers changed as he wrote, and he later decided to alter them in order to tell more intricate stories? - I know 'Chig attempted to rationalise Ancestral/OM by saying "Leto must have bred for it in the Atreides" but, TBH with you, i think perhaps that's unlikely - Such a shift in the ability to access past memories would be almost as incredible, and significant as Duncan accessing the memories of all other dead duncans.
At one point, early in dune, (WITHOUT the benefit of later texts) the traits of Truthsense, prescience, and other Memory all seem linked... true we dont know to what extent, since they were trying to achieve all three in paul. H/E we know there are truthsayers without pr/OM. also OM without pr/TR and finally Prescients w/o TR/OM.
OR
As with Ancestral memory (all RM's in Dune) and Other Memory (later books). Do we think Frank's concept of these powers changed as he wrote, and he later decided to alter them in order to tell more intricate stories? - I know 'Chig attempted to rationalise Ancestral/OM by saying "Leto must have bred for it in the Atreides" but, TBH with you, i think perhaps that's unlikely - Such a shift in the ability to access past memories would be almost as incredible, and significant as Duncan accessing the memories of all other dead duncans.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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I never got the impression that Truth Sense was in any way connected to Prescience or OM, I thought of Truth Sense as the reading of the minutiae in a person's face/voice/body language - sort of an extreme extension of how most people can tell some of the time when someone else is lying. The same thing but perfected into a science.loremaster wrote:'Chig raises another interesting point i once meant to mention.
At one point, early in dune, (WITHOUT the benefit of later texts) the traits of Truthsense, prescience, and other Memory all seem linked... true we dont know to what extent, since they were trying to achieve all three in paul. H/E we know there are truthsayers without pr/OM. also OM without pr/TR and finally Prescients w/o TR/OM.
OR
As with Ancestral memory (all RM's in Dune) and Other Memory (later books). Do we think Frank's concept of these powers changed as he wrote, and he later decided to alter them in order to tell more intricate stories? - I know 'Chig attempted to rationalise Ancestral/OM by saying "Leto must have bred for it in the Atreides" but, TBH with you, i think perhaps that's unlikely - Such a shift in the ability to access past memories would be almost as incredible, and significant as Duncan accessing the memories of all other dead duncans.
Then again, now that I think about it, I guess the mention of the Truth Trance and Truth Trance Drug do sorta take this in the other direction... hmmm.
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I tend to look at it this way as well.I never got the impression that Truth Sense was in any way connected to Prescience or OM, I thought of Truth Sense as the reading of the minutiae in a person's face/voice/body language - sort of an extreme extension of how most people can tell some of the time when someone else is lying. The same thing but perfected into a science.
Well, yes and no. Perhaps you could view the drug induced Truth Trance as a means to enhancing concentration and analytical abilities? A big part of being able to 'read' a person is experience in reading many people! OM could certainly enhance your knowledge of human psychological behavior and the minutiae of verbal and body language. This could be a way for a Truthsayer to assess and compare truth from lies...Then again, now that I think about it, I guess the mention of the Truth Trance and Truth Trance Drug do sorta take this in the other direction... hmmm.
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True.halcyo wrote:Well, yes and no. Perhaps you could view the drug induced Truth Trance as a means to enhancing concentration and analytical abilities? A big part of being able to 'read' a person is experience in reading many people! OM could certainly enhance your knowledge of human psychological behavior and the minutiae of verbal and body language. This could be a way for a Truthsayer to assess and compare truth from lies...Then again, now that I think about it, I guess the mention of the Truth Trance and Truth Trance Drug do sorta take this in the other direction... hmmm.
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I was only able to do that at DumbNovels, you people are too quick for me here.A Thing of Eternity wrote:Freak's even faster. He actually can reply to a post before it has been posted, I've seen it 2 or 3 times now. He's a ninja.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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And, what about Rebecca? Lets not forget her. She pass through the Agony and had the power of sharing, but hadn't Ancestral Memories.
I think she was the example that accessing AM was necessary a previous training.
I think she was the example that accessing AM was necessary a previous training.
Last edited by Lisan Al-Gaib on 28 Oct 2008 18:17, edited 2 times in total.
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I feel ashamed, but those details are fuzzy to me at the moment. Could someone find evidence of this? I could have sworn she talked to the Rabbi about OM. Was it really JUST the shared lives? Maybe she was just overwhelmed with all of the shared memories that she couldn't really dive deeper into her own ancestral past through all that 'noise'?Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:And about Rebecca? Lets not forget her. She had been past through the Agony and had the power of sharing, but hadn't OM.
I think she was the example that accessing OM was necessary a previous training.
I can't imagine, having been through the Agony, that she was unable to access her own genetic memory to some extent.
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AToE - i think there is a passage in HoD where rebecca is describing her old boyfriend, who was a truthsayer, and in there it is mentioned that
"Even if the subject genuinely believes what they are saying, my truthsense will still ring alarm bells" (paraphrased!).
Which suggests to me that truthsense is something within the natural harmony of the universe, since a person who genuinely believes what they are saying would (presumably) display no outward sign of the falsehood.
Which always led me to think that a truthsayer should ask a subject a question which they had NO chance of knowing, and just keep waiting till their spidey-sense went off.
Truthsayer (to Prisoner): "Is RM Mohiam wearing a black lace thong?"
Prisoner: How the F*** should i know?
Truthsayer *slaps prisoner* just answer!
Prisoner: Ummm..... No, she isnt wearing a black lace thong.
Truthsayer: my truthsense is tingling, which means she must be! *Fap Fap Fap Fap*
"Even if the subject genuinely believes what they are saying, my truthsense will still ring alarm bells" (paraphrased!).
Which suggests to me that truthsense is something within the natural harmony of the universe, since a person who genuinely believes what they are saying would (presumably) display no outward sign of the falsehood.
Which always led me to think that a truthsayer should ask a subject a question which they had NO chance of knowing, and just keep waiting till their spidey-sense went off.
Truthsayer (to Prisoner): "Is RM Mohiam wearing a black lace thong?"
Prisoner: How the F*** should i know?
Truthsayer *slaps prisoner* just answer!
Prisoner: Ummm..... No, she isnt wearing a black lace thong.
Truthsayer: my truthsense is tingling, which means she must be! *Fap Fap Fap Fap*
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!