Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

O gosh, this thread is so old and so went the way of the flames, but i really, really want to give my own take on the 4 deaths/ seeds thing, so these people will just have to wait...

1- Death of the Body- The God falls into the river- the sandtout from his body will spark a new spice-cycle, whose worms will forever have something from Leto- the seeds of the Body

2- Death of the Soul- The end of Siaynoq- but even as the FishSpeakers scatter, new interpretations like the people's Shaitan and Tleilaxu Prophet- the seeds of the Spirit

3- Death of the Myth- the savage breaking of His Peace, which also means that people stop thinking that everything that happens was foreseen by Him- and the Scattering brings about a new stability of sorts- the seeds of the Myth

4- Death of Reason- the end of His world view, of his ideology, his teachings- fading out in time, to be revealed after millennia at Dar-es-Balat- the seeds of Reason

I do think that "reason as purpose" and "reason as capability to reason" are both nuanced in His words. One of the things i noticed after re-reading GEoD was that His words could always be understood in other levels, and those usually did complement and enrich my reading. Even if it is bad English, and i am not even a native speaker, i do find the connotation of "purpose" enriching in this context...

So i would guess that the death of reason is in some ways the death of the GP, as in the moment where people stop thinking "what did the Golden Path require here?" and started thinking "what should I do here?" -- and that in many ways is also a seed of the GP, a return without a resurrection, so to say.

Anyway, i re-read the chapter, and i do really think it all is trying to explain the Royal Death and it's consequences...

"Each of us is different in the way of Moneo's observation," he said. "Genesis does not stop. Your god continues creating you."

mrpsbrk wrote:O gosh, this thread is so old and so went the way of the flames, but i really, really want to give my own take on the 4 deaths/ seeds thing, so these people will just have to wait...

I do not mind if people post in old topics if they have something to of value to add. At least you didn't add to the flames.

2- Death of the Soul- The end of Siaynoq-

I don't see what the end of Siaynoq has to do with Leto's soul. In my view Siaynoq was Leto's version of the Missionaria Protectiva, though he says something like "you think I don't believe in my own godhead? Careful". But either way that makes it a myth, no? As I said on page 6, I think the gloating of Siona over Leto is a more likely candidate for the death of the soul.

but even as the FishSpeakers scatter, new interpretations like the people's Shaitan and Tleilaxu Prophet- the seeds of the Spirit

I have the same trouble here. Seeds of the spirit, ok, but not seeds of the soul.

"Consciousness is the species God's gift to the individual. Conscience is the individual God's gift to the species. In conscience you find the structure, the form, of consciousness, the beauty."

spirit / soul -- difficult distinction, right?

i meant that through Siaynoq Leto lives in his followers, so his will inhabits more than one body. i recall the description of the ritual sugested that it could be strong enough to be at least interpreted as such.

anyway, after writing that post i kind of... thought a little more about it... and i am not very shure i would stand by my words LOL, sorry! but i am not satisfied about eiher of the other suggestions either. i guess i will just have to let it boil in my subconscious for a while before i attempt again.

anyway, this four deaths thing had completely escaped me, but now i think it is a very important part of the whole charade.

martinburo wrote:

2- Death of the Soul- The end of Siaynoq-

I don't see what the end of Siaynoq has to do with Leto's soul. In my view Siaynoq was Leto's version of the Missionaria Protectiva, though he says something like "you think I don't believe in my own godhead? Careful". But either way that makes it a myth, no? As I said on page 6, I think the gloating of Siona over Leto is a more likely candidate for the death of the soul.

But Siaynoq didn't die, it evolved into the dance of the pilgrams and then into Sheeana's dance.

spirit / soul -- difficult distinction, right?

I guess so. To me they are two distinct things, but I recognize this is probably just me. Soul is a personal thing, tightly related to one's moral sense. Spirit is either a group thing, as in the race's need for a Jihad to mix the genes in Dune, or something that is external to the individual, such as katsuk, the bee that "possesses" Charles Hobuhet in Soul catcher.

i meant that through Siaynoq Leto lives in his followers, so his will inhabits more than one body.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but yes, I would call that soul, yes. I still agree with you, though, on

i guess i will just have to let it boil in my subconscious for a while

But Siaynoq didn't die

Sure, but that isn't a problem, then it could just be it's own death AND seed, because it means something completely different to the Fish Speakers who's loyalty is transferred from Leto to Duncan through the latter's participation in Siaynoq from what it means in Heretics.

I liked

Dar-es-Balat- the seeds of Reason