The HLP: many are HERBERTS

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 12 May 2008 04:24

e. The old fart could have forgotten he'd put that outline away in those security boxes and probably had no intention of hiding it from anybody.

After all, he'd gone through the loss of one wife, found another, and then had health problems of his own in that last year or two, no?

(Some very important pieces of information that have never been released so far as I've seen are: (1) When were the safe deposit boxes contracted for and (2) when was the last time FH accessed them? (3) What were the timestamps of the files on the floppies?)

As for what Frank Herbert would say about what his son and other family members have done...WHO THE FUCK CAN SAY?

Even his family, the people who supposedly knew him best, really can't say how he would react to the current situation with 100% certainty. They can only guess, based on their experiences with him.

We fans who never met the man can only go on the impressions we get of him from what we read by and about him.

You're looking for an answer to a question which can have none. He is dead and gone. He neither knows nor cares about anything...because he is no more.

As I stated at the beginning, this is a goddamned stupid thread. Give it a fucking rest already.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 12 May 2008 08:55

Knowing FH personally has absolutly nothing to do with understanding his books.

Mr. Teg · Post by **Mr. Teg** » 12 May 2008 09:14

Spice Grandson wrote:The Herbert family loved and respected Frank. Many a Thanksgiving was spent at his home in Port Townsend with everyone gathered. Even I, in my childhood, talked with Frank about Dune items.

Our goal is to keep Frank's vision alive. It deserves it. It doesn't deserve the trash that has spilled forth on this thread, that's for sure.

I feel nauseated after reading this tripe.

Well, based on what Brian wrote in Dreamer of Dune (and I apologize in advance if the following references are going to upset you, but the book was available in more than one bookstore chain and even sold on Amazon) he didn't even know what Dune was until he was picked up hitch hiking one day, most of the time Frank was telling everyone to shut the hell up so he can write, and usually hogged the conversations during dinners, such as Thanksgiving.

So, how well do you guys really understand Frank's vision besides what you can quote from the cover jacket which is all Brian has basically done in the introduction to the new edition of Dune Messiah?

In fact, most Dune related material in Dreamer of Dune was taken from two previously published books about Frank Herbert. Furthermore, during the later half of the book during the time when Frank and Brian renew their relationship, all Brian has to offer is pages of notes about which vintage of wine was served when they got together to eat.

Not exactly the heir in training.

On the otherhand, McNeilly was taking steps to preserve as much of Frank's original material as possible even several taped interviews (Brian discovers some boxes in his attic over a decade later).

The majority of the material by Frank Herbert in The Road to Dune was taken from the collection at CSU Fullerton (which wasn't alot compared to the amount of "new" material by KJA and Brian).

Originally, McNeilly who did actually have a long relationship with Frank Herbert spending most of it trying to understand and preserve his vision, submitted a sample chapter for the Butlerian Jihad to Brian, whodidn't even reply. Snuffed him...

On the otherhand, Brian did write a glowing review for Ai! Perdito by KJA co-authored with L Ron Hubbard. Shortly afterwords, KJA and Brian agreed to write Dune books together.

Hmm....something smells and it ain't flame bait.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 12 May 2008 10:11

I'd like everyone to take the time to review Rule Number One and please try to refrain from personal attacks.

Thanks

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » 12 May 2008 11:16

I can just imagine the private messages

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 12 May 2008 12:13

You can save your words nebrios because your silly anachronistic argument is the last thing that's going to convince anyone of your point of view. The HLP is shilling mediocrity riding off a now branded, franchised name. No one is going to convince me it is anything other than that with ridiculous "what-if" scenarios, which are just the kind of smokescreen that draws criticism off point.

This trickle-down defense is also absurd, defending the awful prequels because they are somehow offset by the supposed front page coverage they provide for Frank Herbert's Dune novels. Want to promote Frank Herbert's Dune? Then do so! Don't try to sell me garabge window dressed as Dune then claim the ends justify the means.

Modern consumer culture is already adrift in a sea of almost indecipherable mediocre product. Adding to that abyss is not helping Frank Herbert's original creation in any way, nor is it promoting/inspiring new creative works. It's creating a consumer culture where mediocrity is the celebrated norm, not originality. The supposed small amount of good coming from these prequels is self deceit, an attempt to justify unleashing more mediocre products in a consumer market already drowning in them.

chanilover · Post by **chanilover** » 12 May 2008 15:56

I'm still struggling to understand why anyone would think being related to Frank Herbert gives a person more insight into Dune and Frank's vision. It doesn't. Frank was a literary master, his son is a shit writer.

Crysknife · Post by **Crysknife** » 12 May 2008 16:36

Originally, McNeilly who did actually have a long relationship with Frank Herbert spending most of it trying to understand and preserve his vision, submitted a sample chapter for the Butlerian Jihad to Brian, whodidn't even reply. Snuffed him...

Damn, that's sad. If only the good Doc were still around so we could ask some questions.

A Thing of Eternity · Post by **A Thing of Eternity** » 12 May 2008 16:49

I wouldn't mind that sample chapter being released just for fun. Not holding my breath though.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 12 May 2008 18:25

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I wouldn't mind that sample chapter being released just for fun. Not holding my breath though.

I'd love to read that.

orald · Post by **orald** » 12 May 2008 18:54

I hope it reveals how the clam'opter was invented during the early years of the BJ.

I can't say I hold my breath for it too much unless he ditched all the silly stuff.

Post by **Omphalos** » 12 May 2008 18:56

orald wrote:I hope it reveals how the clam'opter was invented during the early years of the BJ.

I can't say I hold my breath for it too much unless he ditched all the silly stuff.

That or a little expansion of the orbiting Holtzmann story. That one kills me too.

orald · Post by **orald** » 12 May 2008 18:59

ctually my original post would have read "invented by Holtzman's flying brain" but I wasn't sure I remembered that part correctly, was one of the few things I actually read in the DE.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 12 May 2008 20:03

The Holzmann story wasn't as far fetched as the thopters powered by giant land molusks to me.

Keep in mind though, that McNelly didn't write but a few of those articles. He mainly complied the DE.

Post by **Omphalos** » 12 May 2008 20:38

Do you think in the new movie they will treat us to a scene where one of the clams gets a charley horse and crashes? That would be kewl!

Nebiros · Post by **Nebiros** » 12 May 2008 23:50

Being related to him or knowing him does not have anything to do with understanding his work.

What it DOES have to do with is what he would have wanted from his family and people who knew him well to do. Yes there were plenty of OTHER things they could have done with Dune. But I still believe it was possible for Frank to see this coming.

OK let's see. He wrote great books and was a genius. But despite his genius he did not realize his family members he had known and loved for many years especially his own son who he KNEW aspired to be a writer were all greedy people who just wanted to find get rich quick schemes. Possible, we all make mistakes and overlook the most obvious sometimes.

From Brian's point of view I think he thought that his father wanted him to be happy and earn a living and reap the benefits of his inheritance.

Yes we do not know what he would have thought. However...

I think that while he would not like the new books, he would be happy that his son is earning a living legally. Also these new books are not ruining the quality of the original six (their message is still delivered to devoted fans). So he does not NEED to be angry or feel betrayed.

Some would beg to differ that the new books are in fact ruining Frank's legacy. I don't think so, but if this is the case then yes the Herberts HAVE betrayed Frank. Yet these people refuse to step forward and aknowledge that.

Crysknife · Post by **Crysknife** » 13 May 2008 00:57

I'm all for the HLP making money.....I just wish they had taken the time to do it right instead of stealing money from devoted fans and wasting our time.

The fact that they didn't take the time proves they don't give a shit about Frank's work.

Mr. Teg · Post by **Mr. Teg** » 13 May 2008 01:03

Nebiros wrote:Being related to him or knowing him does not have anything to do with understanding his work.

his own son who he KNEW aspired to be a writer were all greedy people who just wanted to find get rich quick schemes.

Brian the aspiring writer...?

The purpose of their collaboration was mending fences.

(Perhaps Byron will return and defend his assertions more clearly)

loremaster · Post by **loremaster** » 13 May 2008 02:35

I still think the most hilarious argument is "oh he wrote it in his rough notes therefore it must be what he intended in the final polished edition". Even if it was in his DRAFT notes it doesnt mean he would go with it.

If we all were forced to go along with and hold to everything we'd written down my life would be drastically different.

I'm sure in road or whereever it was i read it Frank talks about occasionally looking at whole sections he'd written and thinking "WTF?!?!"... and then proceeding to throw whole sections away, sometimes with a tear in his eye i think he said.

Lord knows i`ve written down and said enough silly things that I'd hope people could let me off with a few.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 13 May 2008 04:10

Nebiros wrote:Being related to him or knowing him does not have anything to do with understanding his work.

What it DOES have to do with is what he would have wanted from his family and people who knew him well to do. Yes there were plenty of OTHER things they could have done with Dune. But I still believe it was possible for Frank to see this coming.

OK let's see. He wrote great books and was a genius. But despite his genius he did not realize his family members he had known and loved for many years especially his own son who he KNEW aspired to be a writer were all greedy people who just wanted to find get rich quick schemes. Possible, we all make mistakes and overlook the most obvious sometimes.

From Brian's point of view I think he thought that his father wanted him to be happy and earn a living and reap the benefits of his inheritance.

Yes we do not know what he would have thought. However...

I think that while he would not like the new books, he would be happy that his son id earning a living legally. Also these new books are not ruining the quality of the original six (their message is still delivered to devoted fans). So he does not NEED to be angry or feel betrayed.

Some would beg to differ that the new books are in fact ruining Frank's legacy. I don't think so, but if this is the case then yes the Herberts HAVE betrayed Frank. Yet these people refuse to step forward and aknowledge that.

SO WHAT?

WE do not have to be happy with it.

orald · Post by **orald** » 13 May 2008 05:25

Ah damn, I'm having deja-vu with your post, loremaster, but this one's a very old deja-vu.

Nebiros wrote:OK let's see. He wrote great books and was a genius. But despite his genius he did not realize his family members he had known and loved for many years especially his own son who he KNEW aspired to be a writer were all greedy people who just wanted to find get rich quick schemes. Possible, we all make mistakes and overlook the most obvious sometimes.

Why do you keep repeating this stupid argument?

If he wanted anyone to continue Dune he would've either told them "this and this is the outline" or sent them for the supposed hidden notes.

Clearly, again, FH knew what a little shit his(?) Brian is.

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » 13 May 2008 10:51

Mr. Teg wrote:
(Perhaps Byron will return and defend his assertions more clearly)

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 13 May 2008 10:58

Assinine thread, assinine thread, assinine thread....

(So subtle, Teg.

)

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 13 May 2008 11:17

Yep, the wall of ignorance has just been erected, so this thread will go nowhere. Guess that's what we get for making solid counterpoints

Spice Grandson · Post by **Spice Grandson** » 15 May 2008 16:48

GamePlayer wrote:Yep, the wall of ignorance has just been erected, so this thread will go nowhere. Guess that's what we get for making solid counterpoints

This is a no-win situation: If we keep going, it's just because of flame-baiting like this. If we don't, those who disagree we'll be drawn into it and insulted until we're either considered trolls or yelled-down by the ignorant.

"The assumption that a whole system can be made to work better through an assault on its conscious elements betrays a dangerous ignorance. This has often been the ignorant approach of those who call themselves scientists and technologists." -- The Butlerian Jihad, by Harq al-Ada

From Children of Dune