Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Well, I feel that I don´t really contribute much to the forum (although I really enjoy reading you, guys) and i´m sorry for that so I wanted to post here an idea that comes to my mind from time to time:

I have always thought to be similarities between the concepts of the sandworms of Dune and the great Cthulhu from the stories of Lovecraft.
I think everybody will agree that both creatures are in some degree kind of a metaphor of the human unconscious. I mean, they both are the “great beast from the deep” in some way or another.
But it is funny to see how the same concept can be seen in so different ways by two different authors and how that can be a reflection of their own ways of perceiving humanity.
I mean that Herbert sees the old Shai-Hulud as dangerous, yes, but he also considers it to be a fascinating creature which deserves admiration.
Lovecraft, on the other hand, always shows Cthulhu as a thing that can inspire only terror.
I think this is especially significant if we consider both creatures to be not only a metaphot of human unconscious but also a metaphor of the “latent potential” of humans as a whole.
I think this is best exemplified when one comes to think about phrases like the classic “the sleeper must awaken” from dune compared to Lovecraft´s admonition about preventing Cthulhu rising:

“That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die.”

I have always seen this as Herbert telling us that we must develop all our potential while Lovecraft is obviously afraid of that wild quality of humanity.
Any ideas about this?

IDK, I'm no expert so I just assumed Lovecraft just wrote horror stories, simple as that. In horror stories you have monsters and secrets and usually curiousity "kills the cat".
Consider the Blue Beard fairytale.

There is an interview where Frank says something exactly along those lines, about the worms representing the great beast from the deep. Too lazy to go hunting for it though.

I was writing about this on another dune forum and I got insulted and kicked for it.
It is good to meet somebody on a similar wavelength at last.

Cthulhu; the great demon whose dream is the source of all our imagination, and whose power we use to manifest the world.
Shai~Hulud; the great dragon whose spice is Life.

H P Lovecrafts father was an egyptian freemason too, do you know...
There are some real interesting similarities between the hidden stories in the two great masterworks.

"worlds within worlds within worlds."

And by which rationale, there can be no singular definitive 'version' or 'interpretation' of these masterworks, because by their nature they are ineffable. And yet we try, because that is of their multitude of purposes; which is what these forums are for. Hence develops society and perhaps even culture.

semuta wrote:because by their nature they are ineffable.

I find that's one other thing they have in common, they are both masters at hinting at the ineffable and letting your imagination fill in the gaps, Herbert with his metaphysical worlds of possiblities and Lovecraft with the sheer terror of the Great Old Ones

To me that was the mark of a writer, being able to speak of something well above the human mind in its own reality: and still make it sound credible and moreover understandable, all that without dumbing down

Wow, ooolllld bump.

Oh well - anyways, I don't know if what you're saying actually lines up with what FH meant by saying that the worms were partially a symbol for the great beast from the deep. He was not talking about something mystical, could you expand on what you thought he meant?

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Wow, ooolllld bump.

lol strange aeons.

I find that both works are very Jungian in our psyche~analysis of them. Archetypal symbolic imagery of mythos and mythepoesis are . I believe that both authors are talking about something mystical, I do not see how anybody with an understanding of either work could miss that. It is self evident especially in Dune where this mystical revelation becomes the subject matter of much of the story, throughout many of the subplots and storylines it deals with.

The inner psyche of most of the characters whose thoughts we are given insight to reveals this, and the characters attitudes toward following their own understandings of their different traditions, or breaking from them. The traditions all seem to center around the choice to take control of ones own life and the environment of the world the character lives in. It is an issue of assertiveness. Every character faces this point, something I enjoy using the term surface tension for when discussing the issues with my counseling clients. There is hidden subtext; Frank utilises water symbolism in the same way that Lovecraft uses darkness as analogy for the subconscious. In symbolism, water is often associated with the emotions, which is another hidden depth with regards the Bene Gesserit attitude toward emotions.

An obvious reference point between these two authors would be Odrades journey into the underdark of Sietch Tabr.

I must not fear, fear is the mind-killer...

lotek wrote:To me that was the mark of a writer, being able to speak of something well above the human mind in its own reality: and still make it sound credible and moreover understandable, all that without dumbing down

exactly!

I'm not arguing that there is no examination of the mystical in Dune, but when FH said that about the worms he was talking about the worms representing the animal "beast" in our sub-consciousness’s. I'm only talking about this one feature of Dune, and this is not an example of the mystical, just the psychological.

Is there actually a quote from FH on that position or is it something apocryphal from Leto 247(even if he's aeons gone)?

I think that in Dune FH offers already a human image of the animal/beast inside, and besides the obvious answer which would be the Harkonnen(Beast Rabban, it is to be found in the BG seiving of humans to weed out the animals in human shape(more or less in those terms).
That animal part is recognized and stopped(dead)with the gom jabbar.

So if worms represent that beast inside, maybe it is one that is more pure and more innocent in a way, as the Fremen and their toughness are pure and innocent... before they meet their prophet...
FH had faith in men as a humanitarian, at least that's what I understood from his works, quotes... and his joining of these two opposing forces, the worm and the fremen, the animal inside and man's capacity to reason is a strong symbol of that trust.

Would that mean that one is an optimist while the other is not? Such a simple explanation would be that? (is that a good time for Occam's Razor?)

A much better one than the one I found in SoD with the super KH and his unholy mating with metalflowing robots...

As for Lovecraft the true evil in his books is utterly alien and is far beyond any horrors devised by human minds, and must never exist on the same plane as humanity, maybe meaning that for Lovecraft that hidden part should remain hidden, just as Cthulhu was not to be awaken.

hopefully I'm making some sense, i very rarely speak english over here so expressing concepts and reasoning could be a bit tedious to read sometimes, not to mention putting up a good show

A Thing of Eternity wrote:...when FH said that about the worms he was talking about the worms representing the animal "beast" in our sub-consciousness’s.

Cool. I imagined this sort of thing to be the musings of a Fremen sitting at sietch edge at dusk, contemplating the worm as 'the animal beast'. A monster, yet necessary to our creativity in so many ways. Can we tame the beast? I feel ashamed to define it in such crude term. It makes me feel like a boy coming to understand in his own way the cryptic remarks of the tribe elders designed to teach us into the wisdoms necessary for maintaining the culture.
The same applies to Cthulhu.
It's funny, I had always associated these things with external to us, but by going within we can draw upon them as a source or personify that occurring within us through the symbolism. Only now am I considering these symbols to be works of fiction designed to give us symbols for self analysis and for drawing forth form of the inner darkness.
"You mean to tell me, that these things are not real?" -my Attention, considering my Mind.
"Ah but we live in a reality defined by the infinite. All things are real." -an inner voice

Both Sandworms and Cthulhu can be identified with the catholic and islamic personification of Satan.

semuta wrote:I was writing about this on another dune forum and I got insulted and kicked for it.

Shocking. I simply cannot imagine anything like that happening to you. Again. And again. And again.

Shai~Hulud; the great dragon whose spice is Life.

Yeah, I got yer great worm whose spunk is live right here.

H P Lovecrafts father was an egyptian freemason too, do you know...

Really? That probably explains this, then, from Wikipedia:

In 1893, when Lovecraft was three, his father became acutely psychotic in a Chicago hotel room while on a business trip. The elder Lovecraft was taken back to Providence and placed in Butler Hospital, where he remained until his death in 1898. Lovecraft maintained throughout his life that his father had died in a condition of paralysis brought on by "nervous exhaustion" due to over-work, but it is now almost certain that the actual cause was general paresis of the insane.[6] It is unknown whether the younger Lovecraft was ever aware of the actual nature of his father's illness or its cause (syphilis), although his mother likely was, possibly having even received tincture of arsenic as "preventive medication".

I see "interesting similarities" between you two, too.

Every character faces this point, something I enjoy using the term surface tension for when discussing the issues with my counseling clients.

Oh, please, just STOP!

lotek wrote:hopefully I'm making some sense, i very rarely speak english over here so expressing concepts and reasoning could be a bit tedious to read sometimes, not to mention putting up a good show

You're doing fine. Much better than the wingnut native speaker.

Is all the bullshit really making sense to you? (Thing, to you?)

semuta wrote:Both Sandworms and Cthulhu can be identified with the catholic and islamic personification of Satan.

Oh, please, DO explain. This should be good.

semuta wrote:Both Sandworms and Cthulhu can be identified with the catholic and islamic personification of Satan.

Smoke less dope.

Seriously.

Is he refering to Shai-hulud being identified as Shaitan, which is Islamic as far as I know?

semuta wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Wow, ooolllld bump.

lol strange aeons.

I find that both works are very Jungian in our psyche~analysis of them. Archetypal symbolic imagery of mythos and mythepoesis are . I believe that both authors are talking about something mystical, I do not see how anybody with an understanding of either work could miss that. It is self evident especially in Dune where this mystical revelation becomes the subject matter of much of the story, throughout many of the subplots and storylines it deals with.

The inner psyche of most of the characters whose thoughts we are given insight to reveals this, and the characters attitudes toward following their own understandings of their different traditions, or breaking from them. The traditions all seem to center around the choice to take control of ones own life and the environment of the world the character lives in. It is an issue of assertiveness. Every character faces this point, something I enjoy using the term surface tension for when discussing the issues with my counseling clients. There is hidden subtext; Frank utilises water symbolism in the same way that Lovecraft uses darkness as analogy for the subconscious. In symbolism, water is often associated with the emotions, which is another hidden depth with regards the Bene Gesserit attitude toward emotions.

An obvious reference point between these two authors would be Odrades journey into the underdark of Sietch Tabr.

I must not fear, fear is the mind-killer...

god help me, I actually read this.
quick, someone stick a crysknife in my eye ...

Happy to oblige.

SandChigger wrote:

semuta wrote: H P Lovecrafts father was an egyptian freemason too, do you know...

Really? That probably explains this, then, from Wikipedia:
In 1893, when Lovecraft was three, his father became acutely psychotic in a Chicago hotel room while on a business trip. The elder Lovecraft was taken back to Providence and placed in Butler Hospital, where he remained until his death in 1898. Lovecraft maintained throughout his life that his father had died in a condition of paralysis brought on by "nervous exhaustion" due to over-work, but it is now almost certain that the actual cause was general paresis of the insane.[6] It is unknown whether the younger Lovecraft was ever aware of the actual nature of his father's illness or its cause (syphilis), although his mother likely was, possibly having even received tincture of arsenic as "preventive medication".

Foiled by the internet again!

SandChigger wrote:
Is all the bullshit really making sense to you? (Thing, to you?)

Well, up until the last bit, (below)... yes, he was making some sense.

semuta wrote:Both Sandworms and Cthulhu can be identified with the catholic and islamic personification of Satan.

Oh, please, DO explain. This should be good.

I'm not up on Cthulhu, but I assume he means that because Sandworms represent our inner animal, they can be compared to Satan, because Satan is the excuse for whenever people cave to their inner animal - blame it on Satan.

I assume. He could mean something much more... "colourful".

Guys, I gotta tell you: having read most of HLP's output — and most of it more than once — I'm just not seeing any parallels between Cthulhu (or any of the other Great Old Ones) and the sandworm. Other than they all tend to be big and a bit frightening.

That's it, though. Anything else is just a big reach.

Someone needs to tell this guy that not everything is connected.

TheDukester wrote: Someone needs to tell this guy that not everything is connected.

man, you just don't get it, man.
everything is connected, man.

check out these sites for the TRUTH, man ...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.crank.net/secret.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://mdma.net/mk-ultra/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.hermes-press.com/anthrax_atrocities2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

don't you see, man ?
don't you see ?
tell me you see, man.
please ...

Dude, the aliens told me (through my fillings) that Cthulhu IS Frank Herbert. Thus, anything he writes is naturally going to have parrallels with himself.

TheDukester wrote:

semuta wrote:Both Sandworms and Cthulhu can be identified with the catholic and islamic personification of Satan.

Smoke less dope.

Seriously.

I gave up smoking altogether about 5 years ago.
Skunkweed has done me a lot of good.
Even the cia psychic agents use it, they created the ppk strain which works very well.
My website details verified true life stories about spiritual development that the aggressive retards on this site aren't ready to know about yet.

As for your advice; thank you.
I counter it with similar advice; give up fluoridated and chlorinated water.
This stuff shrivels the pineal; gland and retards psychic development.
Its why they use it.

A Thing of Eternity wrote: I'm not up on Cthulhu.

the f*ck are you doing getting involved in this conversation then?
but yeah you are close.
its epic like Dune i cant be bothered going into it.
if you know, you know.

semuta wrote:

TheDukester wrote:

semuta wrote:Both Sandworms and Cthulhu can be identified with the catholic and islamic personification of Satan.

Smoke less dope.

Seriously.

I gave up smoking altogether about 5 years ago.
Skunkweed has done me a lot of good.
Even the cia psychic agents use it, they created the ppk strain which works very well.
My website details verified true life stories about spiritual development that the aggressive retards on this site aren't ready to know about yet.

As for your advice; thank you.
I counter it with similar advice; give up fluoridated and chlorinated water.
This stuff shrivels the pineal; gland and retards psychic development.
Its why they use it.

But the fluor is making my teeth shine so brightly!

fluoro does sweet fa to your teeth thats just something dentists tell you to keep themselves employed. seriously theres no proof it has any effect at all on your teeth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1D7BtB0I4k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this vid is about the pineal gland. it might be a bit too much new age philosophy for some of the folks around here, who sadly probably are the ones most in need of spiritual healing anyway haha haha ha