why?


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distrans
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why?

Post by distrans »

the monopoly their allowed shows they dismiss its actual power over the imperal scheme of state of things dune imcorperates

what business of the guild to afforded house corino
what business of the guild to afford house house attratides

what business of the guild to keep to keep we learn of their fear to themselves ages before Jessica bears a son...
georgiedenbro
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Re: why?

Post by georgiedenbro »

Could you rephrase that? This time I couldn't parse the question.
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distrans
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Re: why?

Post by distrans »

sorry
my diction is hit and miss

I'm struggling to make sense of the outright power the spacing guild had and the limited implimention of it which we are shown
georgiedenbro
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Re: why?

Post by georgiedenbro »

The books seem to suggest that they have incredible power. They are one of the three powers in the 'tripod', and in that schema are equal just by themselves to the entire Landsraad and to the Emperor. The reason their presence in the first book seems small is because their objective is narrow stability and will only step in when things are going off the rails. They are not looking to start trouble, but rather to prevent it.
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Freakzilla
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Re: why?

Post by Freakzilla »

They also enforce the Great Convention. If you want to travel in space, you deal with the Guild and their rules.
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distrans
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Re: why?

Post by distrans »

the price that was exacted from the baron to transport his assault fleet to arrakis has always seem to me to illustrate a profound control over the system that wasn't to benefit it economically

and how in often choam had meetings further bears this observation out

control took precidence to growth


what line am i forgetting which showed spices as a dimunitive aspect of choams balance sheet?
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Freakzilla
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Re: why?

Post by Freakzilla »

"CHOAM controls the spice," Paul said.
"And Arrakis with its spice is our avenue into CHOAM," the Duke said.
"There's more to CHOAM than melange."
"Did the Reverend Mother warn you?" Paul blurted. He clenched his fists,
feeling his palms slippery with perspiration. The effort it had taken to ask
that question.
"Hawat tells me she frightened you with warnings about Arrakis," the Duke
said. "Don't let a woman's fears cloud your mind. No woman wants her loved ones
endangered. The hand behind those warnings was your mother's. Take this as a
sign of her love for us."
"Does she know about the Fremen?"
"Yes, and about much more."
"What?"
And the Duke thought: The truth could be worse than he imagines, but even
dangerous facts are valuable if you've been trained to deal with them. And
there's one place where nothing has been spared for my son -- dealing with
dangerous facts. This must be leavened, though; he is young.
"Few products escape the CHOAM touch," the Duke said. "Logs, donkeys,
horses, cows, lumber, dung, sharks, whale fur -- the most prosaic and the most
exotic . . . even our poor pundi rice from Caladan. Anything the Guild will
transport, the art forms of Ecaz, the machines of Richesse and Ix. But all fades
before melange. A handful of spice will buy a home on Tupile. It cannot be
manufactured, it must be mined on Arrakis. It is unique and it has true
geriatric properties."
"And now we control it?"
"To a certain degree. But the important thing is to consider all the Houses
that depend on CHOAM profits. And think of the enormous proportion of those
profits dependent upon a single product -- the spice. Imagine what would happen
if something should reduce spice production."
"Whoever had stockpiled melange could make a killing," Paul said. "Others
would be out in the cold."

~Dune
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distrans
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Re: why?

Post by distrans »

the guilds presence really fell short them believing they could control the fremen
and they signed on to the duke assuming the planet!?!??

they had to have known at least as much as the bg did what he and his were capable of


what percentage of the spice harvest did the guild end up with year in year out?


they could have cut a deal.
delivery the fremen an ocean of water. cut the planets production severely but gained a strangle hold over it.


do you really think the guild hadnt considered that?
do you really think they fremen wouldnt have been compromised in the face of such an offer...
georgiedenbro
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Re: why?

Post by georgiedenbro »

distrans wrote: 03 Jul 2023 21:26 the guilds presence really fell short them believing they could control the fremen
The job of controlling the Fremen appears to have been the Emperor's, which he subcontracted through CHOAM to the Baron.
and they signed on to the duke assuming the planet!?!??
You would have to think about their part (if any) in the Grand Plan. They certainly were willing to allow the Baron to bring an army to Arrakis to attack Duke Leto, so presumably this was part of their calculation.
they had to have known at least as much as the bg did what he and his were capable of
Lynch's film shows the Guild coming to Shaddam and telling him that Paul needed to die. Since FH was involved in the film, I get the idea that this was in the back of Frank's mind even though it wasn't included verbatim in the book. However I think their knowledge was limited to the nexus in the future they couldn't see past, which involved Paul. I don't think they had any idea what the BG had been up to or what a male BG could do. Or for that matter what any of the BG could really do.
what percentage of the spice harvest did the guild end up with year in year out?
I don't recall the books ever mentioning the kind of thing.
they could have cut a deal.
delivery the fremen an ocean of water. cut the planets production severely but gained a strangle hold over it.

do you really think the guild hadnt considered that?
do you really think they fremen wouldnt have been compromised in the face of such an offer...
The Guild would never have tried to cut out the Emperor and the Landsraad. It would disrupt the tripod and destabilize the galaxy. If what you're asking is why they didn't just strand everyone on their planets and try to take over, I think the answer is that anyone could have just started using computers again at any time if that happened. Only the Great Convention, which the Guild enforced, would prevent that.

Maybe another good question is why Paul didn't think of this at the end of Dune. How did he know that the rest of the Empire wouldn't just fold and say screw the Great Convention? I think what we see shows that the Convention is so important to everyone that they would much rather have Paul as Emperor than break the Convention.
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distrans
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Re: why?

Post by distrans »

much thanks for a well reasoned response

america's CIA was originally stipulated to be an agency which would incorperate the data 17 existing inteligence agencies were feeding in and and making a sense of it for the executive

such power leads to fiefdoms of themselves
all the power. no governance


these complexities exist where ever overarching controls are established.


choices as to what was likely has to incorperate their existance
no matter their name in fact

he was long on allusion to's

this and those like are have to be in fact if were aligned with the canon...
georgiedenbro
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Re: why?

Post by georgiedenbro »

Just another small point. The Guild's monopoly and therefore their enormous power rest in the fact that everyone agrees not to use computers, and therefore they must deal with the Guild. This is exactly the kind of situation they would not want to change, since establishing their monopoly was the whole point. If they start trying to take over the monopoly is easily broken. So enforcing the Great Convention is, for them, the same thing as forcing everyone to pay them whatever they ask for. It's win win. I don't think it's just because they were stupid that they wanted to keep this status quo. Their real problem is that nothing lasts forever, and they wanted it to last forever.
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distrans
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Re: why?

Post by distrans »

georgiedenbro wrote: 05 Jul 2023 13:56 I don't think it's just because they were stupid that they wanted to keep this status quo. Their real problem is that nothing lasts forever, and they wanted it to last forever.
i dont think they were stupid either,
but wealth empowers agencies additional to those that created the wealth; or the monopoly.

maintaining wealth is another division entirely what directive created it.


the guild given their power couldnt avoid having internal agencies that cautioned against many of the steps they eentually took.
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