Charlton Heston dies

orald · Post by **orald** » 09 Apr 2008 06:51

Yea, but when those "yokels" get slaughtered and the news spreads...you'll get tens of millions more "yockels".
And I hear 'em "yockels" have lots of relatives in the army, ya know.
Fuck, half the USA army is probably "yockels".

Post by **Freakzilla** » 09 Apr 2008 08:22

orald wrote:Yea, but when those "yokels" get slaughtered and the news spreads...you'll get tens of millions more "yockels".
And I hear 'em "yockels" have lots of relatives in the army, ya know.
Fuck, half the USA army is probably "yockels".

In reality, the US Army is better educated than the average citizen.

orald · Post by **orald** » 09 Apr 2008 08:32

And you're the living proof?

When I said "yockels" I meant southeners, "hill-billies" etc like they're portrayed and mocked(by Mr. Chig here). Is it not true alot of the army comes from such stock as the militias? I find it hard to believe alot of them would be able to follow orders to shoot their own people.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 09 Apr 2008 18:55

The moment of truth always comes when a government orders its army to fire on its own citizenry.

Is the allegiance of the officers and soldiers to their own organization and the chain of command stronger than that to the people they supposedly exist to protect? FH had some things to say on this, no?

Interesting times, indeed.

(Seriously, I hope it never comes to such a point. But given that half the population are...you know the rest.

)

Post by **Freakzilla** » 09 Apr 2008 19:27

US soldiers are not required to follow unlawful orders. The oath they take is to defend the Constitution. The regular army is not allowed to go into action on US soil, if someone's going to shoot civilians it's going to have to be the National Guard or Reserves.

As far as education goes, at least a GED or HS diploma is required for enlisted and a BA for officers, just to join. After that, they will pay for school. Many people join the military just to go to school.

I never met anyone in the Army who had been in a state militia. There is a large minority (black and hispanic) population though.

orald · Post by **orald** » 09 Apr 2008 19:34

I think we need a little civil war here in Israel to clear those traitorous lefties(I mean people not only like Moore, but they physically help terrorists and use lawsuits on every step to hinder any security left in here).

Of course, AFTER I'm safely away in Alaska or something...Maybe a certain swampy farm in Florida?

orald · Post by **orald** » 09 Apr 2008 19:41

Freakzilla wrote:I never met anyone in the Army who had been in a state militia. There is a large minority (black and hispanic) population though.

Lol, of course not, they filter those away. Also crime families IIRC.
I meant their relatives might be a bit "militia-minded".
It's not like there're actually that many people in militias, those are the true wierdoes, but there're lots of people who want to own a gun because of that freedom thingy it symbolizes. All those rednecks etc.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 09 Apr 2008 19:44

I'm certainly not trying to portray the army as dummies or anything, but if it came down to it, in practical terms how many soldiers would be able to determine whether their orders were ultimately "lawful" or not? (If ordered into an area to support beleaguered Guard units, how many would refuse on the basis of that "not on US soil" law, for example?) How many could tell whether the Constitution was being endangered?

It's a sad State (=nation state) where fear of the government is used as a justification for not restricting the availability of lethal weapons.

Just saying.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 09 Apr 2008 21:12

I think it would have to be civil war for the Regular Army to be used in the US.

They have training classes on what kind of orders are lawfull and not.

Shooting non-combatants is never lawfull.

orald · Post by **orald** » 09 Apr 2008 21:28

Freakzilla wrote:Shooting non-combatants is never lawfull.

Pffft, yea, right.

What if you got an unarmed civilian spotting your unit and you know he'll alarm the enemy? And you can't just tie him up or guard him.

Besides, like they say in FMJ: Anybody who runs is a VC. Anybody who doesn't run is a well disciplined VC.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 09 Apr 2008 21:35

That's hard to say. All my training was conventional. If I knew they were relaying information to the enemy I would consider them a combatant.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 09 Apr 2008 23:36

Freakzilla wrote:That's hard to say. All my training was conventional. If I knew they were relaying information to the enemy I would consider them a combatant.

I concur 100%.

Aiding the enemy is participating. Makes you a combatant whether you have and use or never touch a gun. None of this namby-pamby "But I was just acting as lookout!" bullshit.

orald · Post by **orald** » 10 Apr 2008 06:13

Very good. So I suppose you both approve Israel's army shooting all those Arab collaborators and children who work as spotters?
Pity they don't really do that, we'd actually be winning that way.

Fantômas · Post by **Fantômas** » 10 Apr 2008 07:25

Freakzilla wrote:That's hard to say. All my training was conventional. If I knew they were relaying information to the enemy I would consider them a combatant.

...and he/she will be dead.

Fantômas · Post by **Fantômas** » 10 Apr 2008 07:36

orald wrote:Very good. So I suppose you both approve Israel's army shooting all those Arab collaborators and children who work as spotters?
Pity they don't really do that, we'd actually be winning that way.

There is enough precedence about these "kids" for the whole world to know/see the truth. If the Arabs want to use under age combatants, then...If the world does not wants to admit to it...you know how I feel in a case like this....
I give this kids & women credit for fighting, but they are fighting
for what I have seen on CNN, I think the Israeli Army does a superb job in controlling the chaos they are faced with on a daily basis.
Jerusalem, long live!

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 10 Apr 2008 08:04

orald wrote:Very good. So I suppose you both approve Israel's army shooting all those Arab collaborators and children who work as spotters?
Pity they don't really do that, we'd actually be winning that way.

Women = adult females = they know what they're doing, so yeah, blow their fucking heads off. (Something no doubt made easier if you can't see their faces. Sorry...a stereotype, I know.)

It gets a bit sticky with children...and stickier the younger they are.

IMO it's a matter of their mental development and what they understand of what they're doing.

The people who use children in such ways are NOT HUMAN. They take advantage of the natural human instinct of others not to kill children.

So, yeah, I guess I'd have to say mow the kids as well. Their parents don't deserve them or to have their genes passed on.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Apr 2008 09:16

In the Iran-Iraq war, Iran lined up children at the edge of mine fields and had them walk across to clear them. Appearantly they don't value the lives of their children anyway.

"Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out."

orald · Post by **orald** » 10 Apr 2008 09:25

SandChigger wrote:They take advantage of the natural human instinct of others not to kill children.

I didn't know there was such a thing. Sure isn't showing its face around in my head.

And I never even considered women to not be elligable targets. They want equallity after all. I'll give them their equallity.

Fantomas wrote:I think the Israeli Army does a superb job in controlling the chaos they are faced with on a daily basis.

No, I think they're doing a lousy job. They're not shooting down those underaged stone throwers, suicide-bombers and scouts enough.

And yet the world(and local) media still go on about alleged shootings

I've taken to, when I comment on news articles on the internet, posting rediculously conspiratorial, antisemitic comments whenever there's yet another story about a captured terrorist etc.
Something like "that's just a conquering zionist lie! kill the Jews!" signed by names of certain prominent leftist politicians.

Trying to elevate it further, I'm making new claims(besides the usual blood drinking, baby killing etc ones). A favorite of mine is to call for the killing of all Jews, them being "murderers of Jesus and Muhammad".
Yep, I hope to start an internet rumor that the Jews killed Muhammad too. Maybe on a cross or something.

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 10 Apr 2008 10:48

If I were a soldier and some "non-combatant" is acting in a manner that endangers myself and fellow soldiers, they are going down. Of course, this is assuming I have the will to kill, which thankfully has gone untested in my life thus far.

As for who they are, welcome to the tragedy of war, however you want to define it. Innocents are brainwashed, innocents are used, innocents are killed; that's part of what war is. It's why we should be struggling to avoid it as much as possible, because once we do commit, all the rules go straight out the window. We shouldn't be "Anti-War" (a ridiculous concept, IMO) we should be "war avoiding" unless there is little option left. It should be a final solution, to be engaged in only at the utmost end of need. Sadly, the reality is war happens far more often and far more easily than it should.

As for the Israeli/Palestinian issues, that's a whole other ball of wax. Personally, I've got little sympathy for either side at this point. Simple fact is the conflict isn't ending and will not end in this limbo of perpetual hatred. Ultimately I have to support Israel as a democratic power and as owning up to the responsibility for my country's own part in the creation of their nation. But I don't have to like it.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Apr 2008 11:01

GamePlayer wrote:If I were a soldier and some "non-combatant" is acting in a manner that endangers myself and fellow soldiers, they are going down. Of course, this is assuming I have the will to kill, which thankfully has gone untested in my life thus far.

Yeah, once they threaten you they become combatants.

There are no innocents.
~Paul-Muad'dib

Fantômas · Post by **Fantômas** » 10 Apr 2008 11:07

orald wrote:
SandChigger wrote:They take advantage of the natural human instinct of others not to kill children.

Fantomas wrote:I think the Israeli Army does a superb job in controlling the chaos they are faced with on a daily basis.
No, I think they're doing a lousy job. They're not shooting down those underaged stone throwers, suicide-bombers and scouts enough.

It is a policy of the Israeli Government to "restrain" the use of deadly force. The whole world is watching & all that. I meant that when Israeli soldiers are attacked, for what I've seen, the self restrain the soldiers observe is commendable. They're just following orders which tells me one thing of many things involved in this conflict/war, Israeli Army is highly disciplined. As I see it, the feelings of impotence that these soldiers must feel are enough for any soldier to just say f....ck it, I am killing something today.

Fantômas · Post by **Fantômas** » 10 Apr 2008 11:15

Freakzilla wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:If I were a soldier and some "non-combatant" is acting in a manner that endangers myself and fellow soldiers, they are going down. Of course, this is assuming I have the will to kill, which thankfully has gone untested in my life thus far.
Yeah, once they threaten you they become combatants.

There are no innocents.
~Paul-Muad'dib

GamePlayer, I hope you never have your life, or the lives of the ones you love threatened, when & If that moment arrives @ your proximity you will know exactly what to do. Have no doubt! Indecesion kills & I pray you have "something" to defend your self with.

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 10 Apr 2008 11:36

Don't fool yourself; the will to kill is rare. Even among trained soldiers, only a small portion of them actually possess the will to take a life. By far the vast majority of humans, even when pushed to the limit, will refuse to kill. We should be thankful for that. Were it any different, we probably would have been extinct long ago.

I'd like to think I'd kill rather than be killed and I know I'm angry enough a person to do terrible things. But even committing myself to kill is not enough. Only in the midst of the moment, when it's kill or be killed, would I ever know for sure. I remain convinced to this day that despite all the talk, boasting and posturing, the vast majority of my fellow man are exactly the same, even if they would never admit it. Only a few of us truly possess the will and desire to kill and it's an ambivalent honor to say the least.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Apr 2008 12:27

I'll admit it.

One sort of regret I have though is I never got the chance to find out durring the first gulf war. I say sort of because at the same time I'm glad I didn't find out. You train and train to do just that but if the moment never comes it leaves you kind of feeling kind of empty.

If anyone has seen the movie Jarhead, I could empathize with the main character at the end of the movie.

Fantômas · Post by **Fantômas** » 10 Apr 2008 13:18

GamePlayer wrote:Don't fool yourself; the will to kill is rare. Even among trained soldiers, only a small portion of them actually possess the will to take a life.

I live in Miami now, well I moved to the suburbs 9years ago & I do not like stereotyping, but when the "moment" came to me, (I did not go looking for it

), i did not hesitated. I was shot @ & I responded with a 2 round burst from a .30 caliber carbine. I had only 3 rounds in my banana clip. Keep your magazines fully loaded! with lead.

I think...is this way

God created Man
Henry Lee Colt made them equal.