Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Scytale was a Face Dancer in Dune Messiah. How did he end up as a Master in the later books?

I remember from old discussions that it's been suggested he was "promoted" after his rather good performance in DM.

I've seen some talks about this over on DN, and the "genetic promotion" idea does seem like a viable explaination.

Thinking about this, I also got the impression that in Muad'Dib's time, there was not yet these types of class distinction among the BT.
Face dancers seemed to be at the same level as any Tleilaxu (although we didn't see very many), if not more prestigious because of their talents.

It makes sense that Masters only came about after they were able to awaken ghola memories, giving them the ability to immortalize themselves. You then have the familiar Dune theme of a society slowly changing over time after a huge discovery like this.

Hmmmm...and maybe the first Masters were Face Dancers to begin with? But in Heretics, the FD really seem a lower class to the Masters...

That would explain a lot about the evolution up to Marty and Daniel in a way : Absorbing personae gives the host superior genetic knowledge and control over it...but it's just a theory...

Absorbing personae gives the host superior genetic knowledge and control over it

Umm, "genetic" knowledge? They're collecting memories, they're not taking in genes.
For instance, a FD absorbing Teg's memories might immitate his shape and speech, but he wouldn't have his super speed and limited prescience, unless they made a new FD type specifically with such genes in it.
Other than that you'd need a ghola or clone.

I think Bijaz was the prototype Master.

He was also of diminutive stature, and there's that line at the end of DM about getting memories back from all of his lives.

Kewl.



Ai-yai-yai. Once our favorite midget sees that, he'll be on overdrive, you know. Eeew.

I exist only to serve.

orald wrote:

Absorbing personae gives the host superior genetic knowledge and control over it

Umm, "genetic" knowledge? They're collecting memories, they're not taking in genes.
For instance, a FD absorbing Teg's memories might immitate his shape and speech, but he wouldn't have his super speed and limited prescience, unless they made a new FD type specifically with such genes in it.
Other than that you'd need a ghola or clone.

Yeah, i was talking about memories only, not genes...but the action of collecting the knowledge, shapeshifting, etc for hundreds of years or more and hundreds of individuals...that's what i meant that would give M and D superior genetic knowledge...

I suppose I can stomach the idea that Bijaz was a prototype Master; but he was certainly NOT a full blown Master in DM. Notice how when talking to Hayt we continually refers to "our" masters back on Tleilax. He was clearly in a submissive role during all of DM:

Bijaz nodded, eyes drooping as though tiring. Then: "He will be tempted . . and in his distraction, you will move close. In the instant, you will strike! Two gholas, not one! That is what our masters demand!"

There is more to the message. It is a trade the Tleilaxu offer your precious Paul Atreides. Our masters will restore his beloved.


He will turn into a spitting machine, a biter of words that ring with a lovely noise to our masters."

This implies to me he is something less on the BT social scale than a "Master."

The only two reasons people say Bijaz is a master is firstly, that he is short. Well he is a "catalyst dwarf", so yes he is short. Masters are diminuitive, but they are proportioned like a child, not like a dwarf IMO.

Secondly, Bijaz is using the Humming language because, and I quote from DM:
There had to be a flaw in the Tleilaxu logic.In making their ghola, they had keyed him to the voice of Bijaz.

I suggest that this is not the standard whistling language (note: Scytale actually refers to it as "whistling language" in CHD for gholas, not "humming"--but Waff "hums" at Tuek in Heretics, who is a FD) that all Masters know, its been keyed specifically to Bijaz. Also, Scytale (bear in mind that even Bijaz calls the awakening of Duncan in Hayt "Scytale's plan", not his own) refers to Bijaz as the "catalyst-dwarf".

Lastly, as weak supporting evidence, Bijaz is prescient; no Masters are prescient that we see in any of the subsequent books.

IOW, I don't think Bijaz is a Master at all........

chanilover wrote:Scytale was a Face Dancer in Dune Messiah. How did he end up as a Master in the later books?

I subscribe to the Genetic Promotion theory and I think the reason for it is indicated in this quote:

There! Let them think on that! Every one of them here had been wakened time after time in ghola flesh. There was a fleshly continuity in this Council that no other people had ever achieved. Mirlat himself had seen the Prophet with his own eyes. Scytale had spoken to Muad'dib! Learning how the flesh could be renewed and the memories restored, they had condensed this power into a single government whose potency was confined lest it be demanded everywhere.

Scytale was promoted to a Master because he had personally interacted with Muad'dib and had solved the ghola memory problem. His knowledge and experience was needed on the council so they could consolidate all of their experience and power into a single government.

Also, Paul was a sacred figure for the BT, at least AFTER he was gone from the political scene and they stopped trying to sabutage him...like with God Leto. Someone who was just in the room with him would've been fawned upon.

I don't think Bijaz's dwarfism had anything to do with Masters either.
For one thing, as TMB points out, they're normally proportioned though small. Also, they're what, 150 cm in HoD? That's not a dwarf, that's just short, and no way near dwarfed. That's like half a head shorter than me, and I've seen plenty of women that short, some even shorter*.

IIRC, his dwarfism was part of the plan to draw attention to this physical feature. Wasn't he supposed to be a "freak" kind of gift, like a curiosity item on the surface?

*On my job course in the army there was this one CUTE doll instructor about 140-145 cm high. Damn she was cute!

I meant that Bijaz was FH's prototype master in the sense that he was the model for the masters we see in the later books. If he was a prototype in the Duniverse, I only base that on him saying he could have all of his pasts.

Freakzilla wrote:I meant that Bijaz was FH's prototype master in the sense that he was the model for the masters we see in the later books. If he was a prototype in the Duniverse, I only base that on him saying he could have all of his pasts.

Eh, I don't know. I think Bijaz was a specific creation from the tanks to perform certain assignments. He was prescient, so he would be shielding the development of Hayt until the right time they wanted to spring it on Paul. And he seems subordinate to Scytale and the "masters" back on Tleilax. He had probably been used for numerous other tasks before the Hayt project.

Tleilax Master B wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I meant that Bijaz was FH's prototype master in the sense that he was the model for the masters we see in the later books. If he was a prototype in the Duniverse, I only base that on him saying he could have all of his pasts.

Eh, I don't know. I think Bijaz was a specific creation from the tanks to perform certain assignments. He was prescient, so he would be shielding the development of Hayt until the right time they wanted to spring it on Paul. And he seems subordinate to Scytale and the "masters" back on Tleilax. He had probably been used for numerous other tasks before the Hayt project.

I'm not saying they knew he was a prototype beforehand.

Tleilax Master B wrote:He had probably been used for numerous other tasks before the Hayt project.

But, doesn't Hayt/Duncan remember, right around the time he's getting his memories back, seeing Bijaz in the tanks along with himself? I always thought they were grown together.

bryanvdk wrote:

ya so maybe the Bijaz creation was something they would re-create for specific tasks and put into him whatever abilities were necessary to execute the plan. it would explain him having multiple lives. they'd probably kill him off once his purpose was completed

Indeed, Bijaz could be very dangerous over time : Prescience and some attributes of a master...add Face Dancer DNA...maybe a SFD in the making ?

Spicelon wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:He had probably been used for numerous other tasks before the Hayt project.

But, doesn't Hayt/Duncan remember, right around the time he's getting his memories back, seeing Bijaz in the tanks along with himself? I always thought they were grown together.

I'm sure it's the other way around that Bijaz was decanted before Hyat. They were grown in the same "tank" IIRC.

Spicelon wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:He had probably been used for numerous other tasks before the Hayt project.

But, doesn't Hayt/Duncan remember, right around the time he's getting his memories back, seeing Bijaz in the tanks along with himself? I always thought they were grown together.

"You are not Hayt," the dwarf said. "You are Duncan Idaho. I was there when they put your dead flesh into the tank and I was there when they removed it, alive and ready for training."

Bijaz had long since been removed from the tanks when Hayt was decanted. He was there when the corpse was put in and there when it was removed. To shield Hayt from Paul's prescience, IMHO.

Ugh.. I hate the term "decanted". FH used it once, I think, then P&tB latched onto it.

Tleilax Master B wrote:

Spicelon wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:He had probably been used for numerous other tasks before the Hayt project.

But, doesn't Hayt/Duncan remember, right around the time he's getting his memories back, seeing Bijaz in the tanks along with himself? I always thought they were grown together.

"You are not Hayt," the dwarf said. "You are Duncan Idaho. I was there when they put your dead flesh into the tank and I was there when they removed it, alive and ready for training."

Bijaz had long since been removed from the tanks when Hayt was decanted. He was there when the corpse was put in and there when it was removed. To shield Hayt from Paul's prescience, IMHO.

I stand corrected.

So, does everybody have searchable e-copies of the texts?

I guess so.

Mandy wrote:Ugh.. I hate the term "decanted". FH used it once, I think, then P&tB latched onto it.

Twice. In heretics.

Would you prefer "extracted"?

Didn't you used to be Face Dancer B?