Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

For me, one aspect of Herbert's books was disturbing. Why only women were able to access the OM (although only the female line), and men could not access the male genetic lines?
Because women can bear pain better and thus can pass the Agony? I find this excessive. Resistance to pain (and other traits) are highly individual. I've read a discussion, here and from what I understand, it is wrong to judge the strengths and weaknesses only from the number of genes, or from the XX/XY combinations.
This means that there may be men who bear pain as well as women or better. And I find hard to believe that the OM can be accessed only through The Agony.
I understand that Herbert was a feminist, but I think he exaggerates. So I came to a conclusion/idea: there may be, before the epoch of Paul, an organization similar to the Bene Gesserit but made ​​up of men and more secret? I'm NOT reffering to Bene Tleilax. I'm thinking to something that can be called Reverend Fathers.
It could be an organization about that not even the Bene Gesserit knows. This idea came to me after I read in CHoD about unknown influences in the history.
It's just an idea, but to me it's plausible.

DragEgusku wrote:For me, one aspect of Herbert's books was disturbing. Why only women were able to access the OM (although only the female line), and men could not access the male genetic lines?

Because the men who tried died. Reverend Mothers COULD access the male memories, they choose not to out of fear of possession (abomination).

Because women can bear pain better and thus can pass the Agony? I find this excessive. Resistance to pain (and other traits) are highly individual. I've read a discussion, here and from what I understand, it is wrong to judge the strengths and weaknesses only from the number of genes, or from the XX/XY combinations.
This means that there may be men who bear pain as well as women or better. And I find hard to believe that the OM can be accessed only through The Agony.

I believe the key is to withstand the poison, not so much the pain.

I understand that Herbert was a feminist, but I think he exaggerates.

That's interesting.

So I came to a conclusion/idea: there may be, before the epoch of Paul, an organization similar to the Bene Gesserit but made ​​up of men and more secret? I'm NOT reffering to Bene Tleilax. I'm thinking to something that can be called Reverend Fathers.
It could be an organization about that not even the Bene Gesserit knows. This idea came to me after I read in CHoD about unknown influences in the history.
It's just an idea, but to me it's plausible.

Unless they completely cut off their bloodline from the rest of the Imperium, the BG would probably know. If they're so secret, what's the point of the organization?

DragEgusku wrote:For me, one aspect of Herbert's books was disturbing. Why only women were able to access the OM (although only the female line), and men could not access the male genetic lines?

You're talking about a novel series that, amongst other things, features a megalomaniac dictator attaining godhood status and unleashing genocide upon the universe, mind control, people coopted into servitude using drug addiction, women being used as gestation tanks, and underage boys forced to have sex with adult women.

You've picked an interesting thing to be disturbed by.

DragEgusku wrote:Because women can bear pain better and thus can pass the Agony? I find this excessive.

They could pass because of lifelong training, and because of extreme selection. We can assume that only a small number of the Bene Gesserit hopefuls passed the test with the Gom Jabbar. Of those, only a fraction was able to attempt the spice agony. Any normal school with an attrition rate like that would have to answer interesting questions from the school inspection service, but not the Bene Gesserit finishing school on Wallach IX, which leads one to suspect that female lives, on average, were valued a little bit less in the Empire.

DragEgusku wrote: I understand that Herbert was a feminist, but I think he exaggerates.

Are we talking about the same Frank Herbert? I don't think that any of the first four novels(*) even pass the Bechdel test. And let's not forget that the Kwisatz Haderach, the destined-to-save-the-galaxy superhero, is required to be male. Chani gets to be his Wife, Jessica gets to reassure her daughter-in-law that it's a great honor to be the wife of such a wonderful historical figure.

Frank Herbert was aware that he was writing an over-the-top adolescent male power fantasy, and he injected a lot of irony about that into the story, but that doesn't exactly make Dune a piece of feminist literature.

(*) Maybe Children of Dune does, I remember there being a discussion between Jessica and Ghanima, although I think they're mostly talking about Leto.

DragEgusku wrote:So I came to a conclusion/idea: there may be, before the epoch of Paul, an organization similar to the Bene Gesserit but made ​​up of men and more secret? I'm NOT reffering to Bene Tleilax. I'm thinking to something that can be called Reverend Fathers.
It could be an organization about that not even the Bene Gesserit knows. This idea came to me after I read in CHoD about unknown influences in the history.
It's just an idea, but to me it's plausible.

You mean .....






.... this ?

Yea, I think the "reverend fathers" thing has been a bit overdone (maybe "exaggerated" by society already.

But this:

DragEgusku wrote:I understand that Herbert was a feminist, but I think he exaggerates.

I have thought this in the past too. He puts strong women into his books, but he has many of them succeed because of mastery of traditional male virtues (warfare, combat, politics, domination, tactical expertise, etc) and not because of any reliance on the so called "traditional" feminine virtues, such as collaboration, inclusion, etc. Then I realize that Herbert set his books in the real world, and this is not some stupid exercise in literary equality. That is one of the things that sets him apart.

In any event, that is one of the debates the feminist crown has never been able to resolve.

Freakzilla wrote: Because the men who tried died. Reverend Mothers COULD access the male memories, they choose not to out of fear of possession (abomination).

All the men of the Imperium? Again, it is hard to believe that any man could not access OM. It is simply unrealistic. If all people have memories of their ancestors, why only women can access the OM? I understand that the BG sisters have developed techniques that facilitates the process, but men could do the same. For them, accessing the female memories line would be even easier, because they have nothing to fear of possession.

Freakzilla wrote:I believe the key is to withstand the poison, not so much the pain.

Again, why only women can "withstand the poison"?

Freakzilla wrote:Unless they completely cut off their bloodline from the rest of the Imperium, the BG would probably know. If they're so secret, what's the point of the organization?

Maybe their goals require almost absolute anonymity.

Naive Mind wrote: You're talking about a novel series that, amongst other things, features a megalomaniac dictator attaining godhood status and unleashing genocide upon the universe, mind control, people coopted into servitude using drug addiction, women being used as gestation tanks, and underage boys forced to have sex with adult women.

You've picked an interesting thing to be disturbed by.

I said it was one of the issues that bothers me from a practical standpoint. From the moral point of view, many things disturb me. One example: in CoD, the Laza tigers are trained on real targets, two children resembling the Atreides twins. This is pure cruelty. I think Freakzilla can post the relevant passage.

Naive Mind wrote:They could pass because of lifelong training, and because of extreme selection. We can assume that only a small number of the Bene Gesserit hopefuls passed the test with the Gom Jabbar. Of those, only a fraction was able to attempt the spice agony.

The same can be done by men.

@Zeuhl: the title was a male equivalent of the BG title. But it can be anything.

"Have you ever seen truthtrance?"
He shook his head. "No."

"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory - in her body's memory. We look down so many avenues of the past... but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot - into both feminine and masculine pasts."

"Your Kwisatz Haderach?"

"Yes, the one who can be at many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. Many man have tried the drug... so many, but none has succeeded."

"They tried and failed, all of them?"

"Oh, no." She shook her head. "They tried and died."

So yeah, all the men in the Imperium. That's why Paul is special. And everyone should fear possession.

It's not women that can withstand the poison, it's women trained in the BG way that can alter it so it won't kill them (and whoever drinks the Water of Life after that process)

I don't think there is a super secret BG male organization, no more than there are aliens in the Duniverse. (or giant cyborgs and transvestite robots). I mean, so secret FH himself didn't know about it? Unlikely.

That's just the way it works in the Duniverse, women can do stuff men can't.

That's the problem, it seems to make KH forced to be unique. I really do not see why men can not access the OM. All people, men and women, possess ancestral memories. But only women can access them. I just do not see a real reason. Maybe just a literary motif.
Perhaps Herbert did not mention this possibility, but he did not rule it out explicitly. It is possible that what Mohiam said to be correct, but here's a thing. Her statement could be valid in the context of Bene Gesserit's knowledge. But the BG doesn't know everything. A lot of things can take place in the Empire without BG to know.
Another issue: how is it that only women have developed training techniques described in books, but men do not?

That's the problem, it seems to make KH forced to be unique. I really do not see why men can not access the OM

It's a genetic thing.

Perhaps Herbert did not mention this possibility, but he did not rule it out explicitly.

How so?

Another issue: how is it that only women have developed training techniques described in books, but men do not?

Because the men who have tried have died.
Which makes the KH unique.

lotek wrote:

That's the problem, it seems to make KH forced to be unique. I really do not see why men can not access the OM

It's a genetic thing.

If it's a genetic thing, in other words is related to genetic sexual differences, then how is it that KH, who is a male, may have OM? I mean, if genetics prevents all the men to have OM, then KH can not be a male.
Edit: more precise, if this trait is sex-linked, then the KH cannot be male. If it's not, then other mens should be able to have OM.

If it was possible for just any random guy to do, the Bene Gesserit wouldn't have spent 90 (89) generations breeding a man who could.

This is just a given in the Dune universe. You either have to accept that or get over it.

DragEgusku wrote:

Naive Mind wrote:They could pass because of lifelong training, and because of extreme selection. We can assume that only a small number of the Bene Gesserit hopefuls passed the test with the Gom Jabbar. Of those, only a fraction was able to attempt the spice agony.

The same can be done by men.

Yes, but according to the Bene Gesserit, good men are hard to find. They spent generations breeding their own ranks for the ability to survive the agony. And they were certain that men were capable of this too. They just hadn't found one--yet.

To access Other Memory, one needs:

• specialized training from birth
• to win the genetic lottery
• to ingest a very expensive, obscure and otherwise lethal drug

It's quite possible that men exist in the Known Universe who have won the genetic lottery, and are 'natural' Kwisatz Haderachs. But the odds of them receiving specialized training from birth and ingesting the water of life are low. The odds of a secretive organisation of males duplicating their training and rituals are lower.

Maybe the Bene Gesserit could also have found the Kwisatz Haderach by randomly adopting young male babies from the 11,000 worlds and training them in the Bene Gesserit way. But considering that even amongst the Bene Gesserit, bred for the ability to become Reverend Mothers, the odds of passing the Agony weren't good, they apparently decided that a breeding programme was the more viable strategy.

The KH is unique, that's why he is the KH.
And there were others that came close, i.e. Fenring, but he didn't have OM.

It's just that all the men who tried to access OM died.

I think this passage is relevant:

Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an
ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within
himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see
into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a
woman, the situation is reversed."
Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.
"Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.
She could only nod.
"These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground
into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say
to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be.' But when you look inward and
confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see
that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that
takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to
be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."
"And you, my son," Jessica asked, "are you one who gives or one who takes?"
"I'm at the fulcrum," he said. "I cannot give without taking and I cannot
take without . . . "

Men and women are defined in Dune to be inherently different. Looking into the male ancestry was to succumb to the Takers, and looking into the female ancestry was to be overwhelmed by the Givers. This has usually been my take on the 'ancient force' Herbert mentions.

The fact that the KH is the fulcrum is what makes him special, not that he is a male who can look into his genetic history. This theory suffers (quite badly) from the fact that the Taker is supposed to be easy for men to confront, but usually they die when they do.

On another topic, it came as quite a surprise for me to find some people thought Frank didn't treat women well in his books. I always thought them quite admirable characters.

For me the Bechdel test always sounds like bullshit. The small 'criticisms' section on Wikipedia alone seems to demolish it as a useful measure.

The fact that the KH is the fulcrum is what makes him special

Word

SadisticCynic wrote:The fact that the KH is the fulcrum is what makes him special, not that he is a male who can look into his genetic history. This theory suffers (quite badly) from the fact that the Taker is supposed to be easy for men to confront, but usually they die when they do.

Yep, in that case the OP has a point; you'd expect there to be men with patrilineal other memory. Unless men are different, in that they're stupid enough not to look away when the Giver overwhelms them.

On another topic, it came as quite a surprise for me to find some people thought Frank didn't treat women well in his books. I always thought them quite admirable characters.

There's a sliding scale that ranges from being actively misogynist, to being completely even-handed towards women, to feminist literature. The OP accused Herbert of being a feminist, which, for Dune at least, isn't true. The original novel has a deliciously detailed female character in Jessica. Who nevertheless obsesses about her adolescent son, whom she thinks is Jesus.

For me the Bechdel test always sounds like bullshit. The small 'criticisms' section on Wikipedia alone seems to demolish it as a useful measure.

Not being completely even-handed towards women isn't the same thing as being misogynist. Not passing the Bechdel test says very little about an individual piece of literature. What is interesting about the Bechdel test is how easy it is to pass it, and how few movies and books actually do.

Naïve mind wrote:

DragEgusku wrote:For me, one aspect of Herbert's books was disturbing. Why only women were able to access the OM (although only the female line), and men could not access the male genetic lines?

You're talking about a novel series that, amongst other things, features a megalomaniac dictator attaining godhood status and unleashing genocide upon the universe, mind control, people coopted into servitude using drug addiction, women being used as gestation tanks, and underage boys forced to have sex with adult women.

You've picked an interesting thing to be disturbed by.

That was downright droll, Naive mind. The last two things you mentioned made quite an impression on me back when I was reading Heretics and Chapterhouse at 13 years old. The child gholas of Duncan and Miles having surreal explicit sec with Honored Matres/Ben Gesserit older women imprinters for some reason does really stand out the most for me. It was a combination of "what in hell were you thinking, Frank?" and "whoa, that's very creative."

DragEgusku wrote:

Freakzilla wrote: Because the men who tried died. Reverend Mothers COULD access the male memories, they choose not to out of fear of possession (abomination).

All the men of the Imperium? Again, it is hard to believe that any man could not access OM. It is simply unrealistic. If all people have memories of their ancestors, why only women can access the OM? I understand that the BG sisters have developed techniques that facilitates the process, but men could do the same. For them, accessing the female memories line would be even easier, because they have nothing to fear of possession.

It only takes one specially bred guy, made with all the loving care and selective breeding the BG can provide, to have the all cosmic powerful balls to access the full unfiltered OM. How many men do you know, including yourself (assuming you are), who have that kind supernatural manly power? It's too soon to say, because we've got many centuries to go before we discover a planet like Arrakis, and big worms that could create multiple drugs like melange and the water of life.

Still, in the context of Frank Herbert's Dune universe, I'm more inclined to believe that the women (those who are bred and trained to be BG, of course) are better able to access OM than the majority of the men of Dune. Most of the guys, especially the Mentats, get easily distracted by a multitude of manly problems, and thus are unable to see beyond the confines of their reality. Paul on the other hand, thanks to his genetic makeup, special BG training, and oracular dreams, was the only guy in the original Dune book to better perceive the other reality like the BG. Leto II could do it thanks to being Paul's son and especially due to Chani's Spice overdose, which enabled him to remember past memories like Alia. It just takes a special combination of genetics, circumstances, and luck to produce men who can access OM. The only other means of BG training that you can give to men without genetic predisposition is the Weirding Way and perhaps the Voice, but that's it.

I'd like to see you come up with a fan fic involving the men attempting to be like the BG, and trying to access OM. I'd imagine that their sect wouldn't survive very well, because most of them would keep dying from drinking the Water of Life over and over again.

Naïve mind wrote:

On another topic, it came as quite a surprise for me to find some people thought Frank didn't treat women well in his books. I always thought them quite admirable characters.

There's a sliding scale that ranges from being actively misogynist, to being completely even-handed towards women, to feminist literature. The OP accused Herbert of being a feminist, which, for Dune at least, isn't true. The original novel has a deliciously detailed female character in Jessica. Who nevertheless obsesses about her adolescent son, whom she thinks is Jesus.

I thought that she was that way with him because she loved him and was genuinely concerned for his well-being. Sure, she get excited by the prospect of him being a pretty freaky messiah man, but she's primarily a really loving mother who cares about Paul. I think she cares more about him than with his messianic side, because she worries later on when his messianic side becomes a little too prominent.

Naïve mind wrote:
Frank Herbert was aware that he was writing an over-the-top adolescent male power fantasy, and he injected a lot of irony about that into the story, but that doesn't exactly make Dune a piece of feminist literature.

Indeed it is. A 15 year old boy who was bred to to become the ultimate superman by very strong women, manages to make an entire planet his own turf, gains the loyalty of millions of hardcore native warriors, rides huge worms, has a strong deadly hot lady to sleep with him on a daily basis, turns into an even super super human dude from the planet's natural resources, uses all his accumulated power from the planet to get revenge, and then rule the whole universe? That is an adolescent power male fantasy for the ages. Especially for me in my younger days.

Naïve mind wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:The fact that the KH is the fulcrum is what makes him special, not that he is a male who can look into his genetic history. This theory suffers (quite badly) from the fact that the Taker is supposed to be easy for men to confront, but usually they die when they do.

Yep, in that case the OP has a point; you'd expect there to be men with patrilineal other memory. Unless men are different, in that they're stupid enough not to look away when the Giver overwhelms them.

Yes, this I tried to say. English is not my native language, so I express myself less clear than I would like. Men should be able to access the paternal (i.e, male genetic lineage) memories.
I do not understand why men must die when they try it. It just seems to me a literary motif. Womens could discover/invent techniques workout that eases access to the OM, but the men were so stupid that they have not ever done this? Hard to believe.

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Still, in the context of Frank Herbert's Dune universe, I'm more inclined to believe that the women (those who are bred and trained to be BG, of course) are better able to access OM than the majority of the men of Dune. Most of the guys, especially the Mentats, get easily distracted by a multitude of manly problems, and thus are unable to see beyond the confines of their reality. Paul on the other hand, thanks to his genetic makeup, special BG training, and oracular dreams, was the only guy in the original Dune book to better perceive the other reality like the BG. Leto II could do it thanks to being Paul's son and especially due to Chani's Spice overdose, which enabled him to remember past memories like Alia. It just takes a special combination of genetics, circumstances, and luck to produce men who can access OM. The only other means of BG training that you can give to men without genetic predisposition is the Weirding Way and perhaps the Voice, but that's it.

The same could be said about women, that they are distracted with womanly problems. And the Mentats should be capable of seeing beyond the confines of their reality. After all, their training is "the endless search".
In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.

In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.

Why does it bother you so much?

lotek wrote:

In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.

Why does it bother you so much?

Because it's simply illogical and I dislike this?

I see.
But for example, there are no aliens in Dune, even though considering the scale of the Duniverse sounds also illogical.
But it's the way the story goes.

If there was a secret organization of men with BG powers and abilities, they probably would have ended up like the Honoured Matres, consumed by their own tools.

To me, it's a direct message from Frank Herbert, and possibly his wife, telling us that women are way more stronger than men.
(I believe our reaction to the basic flu is a good revelator of this, we men whinge and cringe for things women don't even notice)

lotek wrote:I see.

If there was a secret organization of men with BG powers and abilities, they probably would have ended up like the Honoured Matres, consumed by their own tools.

To me, it's a direct message from Frank Herbert, and possibly his wife, telling us that women are way more stronger than men.
(I believe our reaction to the basic flu is a good revelator of this, we men whinge and cringe for things women don't even notice)

That is another thing I do not like. Generalizations. See what I mean?

By the way, the HM don't have OM.
Edit: did you read the link in the first post of the topic?

DragEgusku wrote:
By the way, the HM don't have OM.

Exactly.

DragEgusku wrote:

Edit: did you read the link in the first post of the topic?

Hadn't seen it, my bad. Hope you noted the generalizations here

Sunnyfield wrote: I also think a lot of the time there is misrepresentation because the geneticist being interviewed is a woman - and sometimes these women may be feminists or maybe have issues with men in their personal life. But as I said, maybe it is just for ratings.

Fact is, the only two men that have OM in Dune are Paul and Leto II. Both the product of genetic breeding by the BG. And that's a fact... in Dune.
This thing about a bridge between X and Y could be what the fulcrum is, something possible but that can't happen unless it's provoked.
But still, I don't see it as unfair or illogical, sorry.

Again, it' simple.

OM requires surviving the Agony
Surviving the Agony requires looking within and changing the drug
Looking within and surviving the drug has only been achieved by women. (and the two men afore mentionned)

Yes, I have noticed these generalizations. But have you read the entire discussion, not only the post you quoted?
A statement such as "all the women are strong and all the men are weak" is simply an oversimplified point of view.
From there, I think that "only women can have female OM and men couldn't have any OM" is wrong.
That is my reasoning.

Your reasoning is invalid in the Duniverse, which never stated "all the women are strong and all the men are weak"