Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Hey, if Nekruhn is going to do it, I might as well too

(Actually I wanted to archive it here; I'm frankly surprised it has actually lasted over on dunenovels. I must have had more tact than I thought ).

My review follows......

When I first decided to write a short review of Sandworms, I was on a plane with my two children flying to the Midwest to see my family. I was about halfway through the “novel” when I noticed I had misplaced my bookmark. My daughter, seeing my conundrum, said “here daddy, you can use this” and proceeded to hand me an airline barf bag. I thought to myself “how apropos.” I used that bookmark to the final, tedious end of my reading.

I’m not going to lie; as most of you have certainly deduced, I hated this book with a deep passion. I’ve spent a number of hours trying to find some redeeming qualities and have met with minimal success. I began compiling a list of inconsistencies, not only between the original Dune series and this book, but also between Hunters and Sandworms, and within the book itself. I gave up and decided it was pointless. I will spare you the excruciating details of my analysis and just hit the high points. I will assume in this review that you know the general order of events and express my opinions on them. I have no desire to rehash the whole storyline and update you anymore than you have a desire to read such nonsense. I will just point out the particularly painful parts….

I will also devote very little of my effort to expressing the problems with the writing style in general. The repetitive nature of this, the underdeveloped plots and characters, the deus ex machine cop outs, etc. etc. are well known and well documented. I’m not a particularly proficient writer myself, so I won’t hurl too many stones inside this glass house of mine.

For starters, I found one of the major flaws of this book to be the return of the past characters. Simply put, the characters don’t act like themselves. They are like vacuous shells of their former selves. In Frank’s original series, I could read a passage by Leto II, or Duncan Idaho, or Waff and without knowing ahead of time who was doing the speaking, I could have told you who the character was. Good luck trying that in Sandworms. The Bene Gesserit characters were like dumbed-down, yet more outlandish versions of the former BG. They simply did not behave like Bene Gesserit. And I mean none of them; not just the former Honored Matres that were now BG. Duncan and Sheeana seem to have completely forgotten Teg’s superspeed and I don’t think Teg even uses his “double vision” anywhere in the book. The Baron is now apparently a sadomasochist who isn’t concerned about shocking others or gaining pleasure from dominating others, but seems to be obsessed with the pain itself. Scytale, oh god, Scytale doesn’t act even remotely like a BT and his kinder gentler ghola version of himself at the end nearly made me vomit in my bookmark. Simply put, these were not the characters we knew and loved previously.

The author’s bring back Paul Atreides and Leto II—arguably the most important characters in the whole series—but they serve NO purpose. They are clearly red herrings designed to draw your attention away from the “huge” revelation (:roll: ) that Duncan is the Ultimate Kwisatz Haderach. An Ultimate KH, I might add, that has limited or no prescience, has to be confined in a no ship for years because he can be tracked by prescience and cannot access any OM—hardly the male version of a Reverend Mother….

Countless others have pointed out the one-upmanship the author’s display throughout this book. Seaworms make “ultra spice”, Duncan is the “Ultimate” Kwisatz Haderach, Norma is a virtual goddess far more powerful than the God Emperor, and so on and so on. I don’t need to rehash this, but I can’t help but wonder what the motivation behind this was……

The Golden Path apparently failed. Despite the fact that Leto II’s empire was “multigalactic” and then humanity scattered further out than that, apparently all humans are now in a single galaxy and have been surround by the Machine Empire. Not much of a Scattering was it. So much for making sure no one force could control the fate of all mankind. 3500 years of jacking around for no reason, bummer. Of course, Leto II’s character never gets to comment on this, which is probably just fine because it probably wouldn’t have made much sense.

Quelso. Maybe it should have been “Kelso”, because it was incredibly stupid and I literally laughed out loud when I read those sections. You see, Stilgar and Liet Kynes are brought back apparently to be trash recyclers on the Ithaca. But when they find the planet Quelso, they see a planet that is in the process of desertification from the sandtrout that BG have planted. Oh wait, it gets better. The people of the planet don’t like those dirty BG and they aren’t real fond of the sandworms either. So they (I’m not making this up) fly around on ships and shoot them with giant supersoakers. That’s right, giant water canons. Liet Kynes and Stilgar, longing to be desert dwellers again, decide to stay and go along with this. That’s correct; they decide to stay with the people who are trying to exterminate Shaihulud. The Old Man of the desert. You know, the God that Stilgar worshipped. Sure, they are hoping to change the ways of these people and maybe even assemble a couple of stillsuits, but until then they will just go around and hunt sacred worms with water guns. I couldn’t make this shit up people. The Ithaca crew decides to go along with this plan and they split. Exit two totally meaningless characters from the main storyline….

Then of course there is Paul sucking blood back up into his body, worms combining into one giant worm, Sheeana walking into a worms mouth (gettin’ chiggy wit it ) and soaking up what is apparently internal spice juice, Tleilaxu deciding to be nice to women, machines and mankind living together in perfect harmony….aaaawwwwwhhhh….aint that last bit sweet?

This is by far the worst of the entire “new canon” books IMHO. I think this is because it’s billed as the “grand climax” and you just expect a lot more from it. I really hated the Legends series, but at least those were characters I didn’t know or give a crap about. Every painful reading of a Scytale chapter (chapters being typically 1 or 2 pages) made my heart ache for the Duniverse that once was. As many have also stated, I felt a need to at least see it to completion. I did that and it was the “bitter medicine” of a KJA future. One good thing came out of this reading for me; I can finally stop the insanity and feel comfortable with the decision to avoid Paul of Dune like the plague…….

Brilliant!

I salute you for your will power to go through such an agonizing read.
I myself am to chicken to even try, I know my limits.

Tleilax Master B wrote:Hey, if Nekruhn is going to do it, I might as well too

(Actually I wanted to archive it here; I'm frankly surprised it has actually lasted over on dunenovels. I must have had more tact than I thought ).

I'm also surprised it did not get deleted...Byron seems in a better mood in the last month or so?

Nice to see the review without all the comments of that "Sandworm" guy, he should have started his on thread, like he said...

Proof that there are actually PSIs out there that think Pinky is better than Frank.

Sad.

Rakis wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:Hey, if Nekruhn is going to do it, I might as well too

(Actually I wanted to archive it here; I'm frankly surprised it has actually lasted over on dunenovels. I must have had more tact than I thought ).

I'm also surprised it did not get deleted...Byron seems in a better mood in the last month or so?

Nice to see the review without all the comments of that "Sandworm" guy, he should have started his on thread, like he said...

Yeah, I have no idea what that dude's ramblings were all about. I think it was just the most active thread at the time and he wanted to be noticed "Hey, look at me!! Hey, new guy here, hellooooooo!?!".

Well I appreciate the fact that Byron left it up (Thanks spice grandson); and he is certainly welcome to comment on (read: bash) my review here.

Tleilax Master B wrote:
The Golden Path apparently failed. Despite the fact that Leto II’s empire was “multigalactic” and then humanity scattered further out than that, apparently all humans are now in a single galaxy and have been surround by the Machine Empire.

It's been a while since I read Sandworms but I never got the impresion that all of humanity was in a single galaxy and was surrounded by the Machine Empire. In fact, it was unnecessary for the machines to "englobe" humanity since for the most part they used biological weapons to attack humanity as well as depend on the face dancers to infiltrate the old empire from within.

arnoldo wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:
The Golden Path apparently failed. Despite the fact that Leto II’s empire was “multigalactic” and then humanity scattered further out than that, apparently all humans are now in a single galaxy and have been surround by the Machine Empire.

It's been a while since I read Sandworms but I never got the impresion that all of humanity was in a single galaxy and was surrounded by the Machine Empire. In fact, it was unnecessary for the machines to "englobe" humanity since for the most part they used biological weapons to attack humanity as well as depend on the face dancers to infiltrate the old empire from within.

So there's no threat to the Golden Path and there's no need for their "Uber-KH", or the story in general, right?

Just reading the reviews of these books makes me feel violated. TMB, ou are a brave, brave man.

I don't think there ever was a direct threat since Erasmus was an anti-villain type figure who was manipulating Omnius for his own purposes. Erasmus basically gave Duncan the decision whether or not to destroy the machines which Duncan could have easily done. Duncan made the decision to take on the metal skin much like Leto II took on the 'trout skin.

arnoldo wrote:Duncan made the decision to take on the metal skin much like Leto II took on the 'trout skin.

Please someone tell me he's shitting me here, metal skin WTF. T1000BS.

inhuien wrote:

arnoldo wrote:Duncan made the decision to take on the metal skin much like Leto II took on the 'trout skin.

Please someone tell me he's shitting me here, metal skin WTF. T1000BS.

That's just arnie's own stupid attempt to legitimize this steaming pile of crap. He didn't take on the "metal skin" and it was nothing like Leto II's transformation, he just did a homoerotic merge with Erasshole and helped him "kill" himself while the cross dresser gave all of Duncan the codes and crap to the stupid machines. Now machines and humans can live in perfect harmony, la la la (*barf*)

arnoldo wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:
The Golden Path apparently failed. Despite the fact that Leto II’s empire was “multigalactic” and then humanity scattered further out than that, apparently all humans are now in a single galaxy and have been surround by the Machine Empire.

It's been a while since I read Sandworms but I never got the impresion that all of humanity was in a single galaxy and was surrounded by the Machine Empire. In fact, it was unnecessary for the machines to "englobe" humanity since for the most part they used biological weapons to attack humanity as well as depend on the face dancers to infiltrate the old empire from within.

Every single time you start one of your rebuttals with "its been awhile since I read Sandworms" you always follow it up with something utterly erroneous. It has been awhile. Most of this is taking place in a single galaxy and its stated explicitly in both Hunters and Sandworms. Prove me wrong with a quote preek, cuz I sure as shit aint going to read it again.

Secondly, isn't this "Kralizec" according to those hacks? Isn't that very term used. The Typhoon Struggle--the battle at the END of the universe? How the fuck can the universe end and humanity live? Of course, Kralizec had already been avoided, as we have tried to tell you countless times, but these books most definately state that all of humanity is in peril because of these machines. Thus, one can most definately imply that the Golden Path failed! (which is of course complete bullshit.....)

Spicelon wrote:Just reading the reviews of these books makes me feel violated. TMB, ou are a brave, brave man.

I'll give him credit that at least he read Sandworms before he dissed it. I can't wait to read his scathing review of Paul of Dune

arnoldo wrote:

Spicelon wrote:Just reading the reviews of these books makes me feel violated. TMB, ou are a brave, brave man.

I'll give him credit that at least he read Sandworms before he dissed it. I can't wait to read his scathing review of Paul of Dune

I have read all three House books and the first one of the books with Erasmus in it (Machine Crusade?) - and that was well beyond what I needed to know to form the opinion that Brian Herbert and KJA suck donkey dick. They are talentless and their motives deplorable. I cannot think, believe, fathom or grok, that anybody who has read the Canon can honestly, and with a straight face, say that these two have positively contributed to the Duniverse, or the literary world for that matter. The fact that a seemingly large number of SciFi readers think otherwise just reinforces my belief that 1) there's no accounting for taste, and 2) the public as a whole is stupid. But, these are hardly original concepts when you consider that we live in a society that gives us Brittany Spears and reality TV. I could go on and on, but you've heard it all before, so I will refrain.

Spicelon wrote:

arnoldo wrote:

Spicelon wrote:Just reading the reviews of these books makes me feel violated. TMB, ou are a brave, brave man.

I'll give him credit that at least he read Sandworms before he dissed it. I can't wait to read his scathing review of Paul of Dune

I have read all three House books and the first one of the books with Erasmus in it (Machine Crusade?) - and that was well beyond what I needed to know to form the opinion that Brian Herbert and KJA suck donkey dick. They are talentless and their motives deplorable. I cannot think, believe, fathom or grok, that anybody who has read the Canon can honestly, and with a straight face, say that these two have positively contributed to the Duniverse, or the literary world for that matter. The fact that a seemingly large number of SciFi readers think otherwise just reinforces my belief that 1) there's no accounting for taste, and 2) the public as a whole is stupid. But, these are hardly original concepts when you consider that we live in a society that gives us Brittany Spears and reality TV. I could go on and on, but you've heard it all before, so I will refrain.

I made it through Hunters, writing crappy prequels is one thing but changing FH's characters to make your own crap jive was more than I could stand to read again in Sadworms. Just having Erasmus in it makes it crap.

Spicelon wrote:I have read all three House books and the first one of the books with Erasmus in it (Machine Crusade?)

Butlerian Jihad, MC is the 2nd in the crapology.
I'm on the same standing only with reading MC as well.

- and that was well beyond what I needed to know to form the opinion that Brian Herbert and KJA suck donkey dick.

Floppy donkey dick.

They are talentless and their motives deplorable. I cannot think, believe, fathom or grok, that anybody who has read the Canon can honestly, and with a straight face, say that these two have positively contributed to the Duniverse, or the literary world for that matter. The fact that a seemingly large number of SciFi readers think otherwise just reinforces my belief that 1) there's no accounting for taste, and 2) the public as a whole is stupid. But, these are hardly original concepts when you consider that we live in a society that gives us Brittany Spears and reality TV. I could go on and on, but you've heard it all before, so I will refrain.

Hear, hear!

Tleilax Master B wrote:

inhuien wrote:

arnoldo wrote:Duncan made the decision to take on the metal skin much like Leto II took on the 'trout skin.

Please someone tell me he's shitting me here, metal skin WTF. T1000BS.

That's just arnie's own stupid attempt to legitimize this steaming pile of crap. He didn't take on the "metal skin" and it was nothing like Leto II's transformation, he just did a homoerotic merge with Erasshole and helped him "kill" himself while the cross dresser gave all of Duncan the codes and crap to the stupid machines. Now machines and humans can live in perfect harmony, la la la (*barf*)

For all you and I know FH intented for a machine/human symbiotic being to emerge in Dune 7. You know, it's called an inversion, turning a key concept such as the anti-machine attitude of the B. Jihad inside out. There's a quote in ChapterHouse about Duncan discussing this concept (human/machine merge) but I'm too lazy to quote it at the moment.

arnoldo wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:

inhuien wrote:

arnoldo wrote:Duncan made the decision to take on the metal skin much like Leto II took on the 'trout skin.

Please someone tell me he's shitting me here, metal skin WTF. T1000BS.

That's just arnie's own stupid attempt to legitimize this steaming pile of crap. He didn't take on the "metal skin" and it was nothing like Leto II's transformation, he just did a homoerotic merge with Erasshole and helped him "kill" himself while the cross dresser gave all of Duncan the codes and crap to the stupid machines. Now machines and humans can live in perfect harmony, la la la (*barf*)

For all you and I know FH intented for a machine/human symbiotic being to emerge in Dune 7. You know, it's called an inversion, turning a key concept such as the anti-machine attitude of the B. Jihad inside out. There's a quote in ChapterHouse about Duncan discussing this concept (human/machine merge) but I'm too lazy to quote it at the moment.

Even if FH did intend an inversion like this, it probably would have seemed more plausible than how P & B did it. Then again, Leto taking on the sandtrout skin seemed to be very "out there" to me, but FH managed to do it in a way that didn't destroy Dune but rather enhanced it by making Leto a man-turned-god.

I would have actually been more impressed if Duncan had actually taken on the flowmetal skin, instead of just winding up with all the machine control codes and Erasmus-in-memory.

Tleszer wrote:Then again, Leto taking on the sandtrout skin seemed to be very "out there" to me, but FH managed to do it in a way that didn't destroy Dune but rather enhanced it by making Leto a man-turned-god.

Blasphemy! God Leto was born a complete God!

I'm pretty sure the one that ponders cyborgs in ChD is Odrade, and Odrade alone...and not from a favorable PoV at that.
In fact, she sees it as a drastic measure and a sign of their bad times, that they need to make a cyborg out of someone because they can't lose the few specialists* they've got.

*Transportation specialist? lol, so what, he can, like, fly and drive well? C'mon, you tell me a RM or even a novice can't bloody fly a 'thopter?
Oh, right, they're all women after all...bad parking skills.

orald wrote:
*Transportation specialist? lol, so what, he can, like, fly and drive well? C'mon, you tell me a RM or even a novice can't bloody fly a 'thopter?
Oh, right, they're all women after all...bad parking skills.

It's because Chapterhouse was left with too few people that Odrade ask for it...

The troll wrote:

For all you and I know FH intented for a machine/human symbiotic being to emerge in Dune 7. You know, it's called an inversion, turning a key concept such as the anti-machine attitude of the B. Jihad inside out.

No, it's called manipulation. You know, turning a fact like FH's books and distorting it inside out for money... Speaking of out...Bebye!!

Rakis wrote:It's because Chapterhouse was left with too few people that Odrade ask for it...

A bus full of novices and several RMs travelling to Sheena's evil desert lair, err, complex, and they need a bloody male to drive them around, with comments about how good a driver he is?
Can't a bloody novice push the gas paddle? Appearantly not, because she's a woman.

You ever driven anything larger than a car? That buss was 30 meters long.

I've never even driven a bycicle, not successfully at least(well, it's a thing with balance so unrelated here, and I keep thinking I'll fall off).

Well, I've driven go-karts(?), those little cars like in emusement parks(not the bumping ones), just a bit bigger. I think the speed was like 30 KPH(about 20 MPH?).

But nevertheless, these are talented novices, lots of RMs too, do they really need a driver that bad that they're willing to turn him into a cyborg, against all their beliefs?

I think they're all poor drivers, being all women and restricted to the female OM. FH was a chauvinist, deal with it. QED.

You know I'm messin' with ya, I'm surprised anyone even cared enough to reply to that joke.