Jihadicus
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- lotek
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Re: Jihadicus
Because they are like two sides of a coin, they can't exist without each other.
Spice is the worm's gonads.
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Re: Jihadicus
Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.Cpt. Aramsham wrote:The example I've usually heard to illustrate Streaksy's point is Alien3 ruining the ending of Aliens by killing off Newt and Hicks.
I don't particularly agree with that example, but the principle holds. So why couldn't some of the stuff in Dune Messiah and Children ruin the ending of Dune?
For example: me having fun drinking beers is not ruined at the moment of drinking by the hang-over that inevitable follows.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
- lotek
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Re: Jihadicus
It makes more sense with beerSerkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.Cpt. Aramsham wrote:The example I've usually heard to illustrate Streaksy's point is Alien3 ruining the ending of Aliens by killing off Newt and Hicks.
I don't particularly agree with that example, but the principle holds. So why couldn't some of the stuff in Dune Messiah and Children ruin the ending of Dune?
For example: me having fun drinking beers is not ruined at the moment of drinking by the hang-over that inevitable follows.
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Jihadicus
I think a perfect example, if you took them seriously, would be Linkup and the Brian's Dune 7. They ruined the whole series.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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Re: Jihadicus
Disco!Freakzilla wrote:I think a perfect example, if you took them seriously, would be Linkup and the Brian's Dune 7. They ruined the whole series.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
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Re: Jihadicus
Dune 7 only ruins the series for me in the sense that I can't take it seriously, and know the series is doomed, in my mind, to incompletion. None of Brian's garbage counts, so Dune 7 is just a sign that it's all over. Nothing more. ;/
And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes. And the good part (drinking) is greater than the bad part (hangover) else it WOULD ruin it and nobody would do it. So if I adjust the variables to ACTUALLY suit my illustration, then it goes in MY favour.
And, look. I don't care. Like I said. If some people are happy to detatch from that and take each book as it is and put the future of the characters and universe out of their mind, I don't argue with that. Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect? Internet people are such facists.
And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes. And the good part (drinking) is greater than the bad part (hangover) else it WOULD ruin it and nobody would do it. So if I adjust the variables to ACTUALLY suit my illustration, then it goes in MY favour.
And, look. I don't care. Like I said. If some people are happy to detatch from that and take each book as it is and put the future of the characters and universe out of their mind, I don't argue with that. Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect? Internet people are such facists.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Jihadicus
For me, the sequels make the endings of the previous books better.
Especially GEoD and CoD.
Especially GEoD and CoD.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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Re: Jihadicus
I can't remember the ending of Heretics, but I love all the endings. I didn't say I didn't. It's just that knowing suffering follows takes a lot of the finallity out of it. ;D I wouldn't have it any other way, really. Just a shame the final climax will be denied to us. ;/
- SandRider
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Re: Jihadicus
this machine kills fascists ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
- Cpt. Aramsham
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Re: Jihadicus
Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.
So, you guys are aware that you're arguing opposite points, right?lotek wrote:Because they are like two sides of a coin, they can't exist without each other.
Of course, Dune could very easily exist without Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.
- lotek
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Re: Jihadicus
I'm also a grammar nazi.Streaksy wrote:Dune 7 only ruins the series for me in the sense that I can't take it seriously, and know the series is doomed, in my mind, to incompletion. None of Brian's garbage counts, so Dune 7 is just a sign that it's all over. Nothing more. ;/
And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes. And the good part (drinking) is greater than the bad part (hangover) else it WOULD ruin it and nobody would do it. So if I adjust the variables to ACTUALLY suit my illustration, then it goes in MY favour.
And, look. I don't care. Like I said. If some people are happy to detatch from that and take each book as it is and put the future of the characters and universe out of their mind, I don't argue with that. Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect? Internet people are such facists.
It's fascists...
For you maybe.And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes.
But yeah, whatever.
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- lotek
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Re: Jihadicus
How so ?Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.So, you guys are aware that you're arguing opposite points, right?lotek wrote:Because they are like two sides of a coin, they can't exist without each other.
The fact that so many people feel betrayed by DM not living up to the swash buckling of Dune proves the opposite, Paul must fall for Frank to get his point on charismatic leaders through.Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Of course, Dune could very easily exist without Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- Cpt. Aramsham
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Re: Jihadicus
Serkanner is saying that when you read Dune, you don't have to worry about Dune Messiah, you can just ignore it and take events and endings of the first book on their own. You're saying Dune "can't exist" without Messiah, that it's somehow incomplete, insufficient. Opposite arguments.
Dune functions perfectly fine as a stand-alone story. It functioned fine for six years before Messiah was published, and it works just fine for all the readers who never go on to the sequels. Just because they don't all take away from it what you think they should, that doesn't mean it can't stand on its own.lotek wrote:The fact that so many people feel betrayed by DM not living up to the swash buckling of Dune proves the opposite, Paul must fall for Frank to get his point on charismatic leaders through.
- lotek
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Re: Jihadicus
Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Serkanner is saying that when you read Dune, you don't have to worry about Dune Messiah, you can just ignore it and take events and endings of the first book on their own. You're saying Dune "can't exist" without Messiah, that it's somehow incomplete, insufficient. Opposite arguments.
That's not what he said.Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.
And what I meant is that they can't exist without each other, because FH time and again said that ths story was about charismatic leaders and their fall from grace, so taking Dune as just an adventure story is a partial view of the whole picture.
Dune is not incomplete without DM, but the message is.
Dune functions perfectly fine as a stand-alone story. It functioned fine for six years before Messiah was published, and it works just fine for all the readers who never go on to the sequels. Just because they don't all take away from it what you think they should, that doesn't mean it can't stand on its own.lotek wrote:The fact that so many people feel betrayed by DM not living up to the swash buckling of Dune proves the opposite, Paul must fall for Frank to get his point on charismatic leaders through.
Again, it's not what I think they should see in it, but what the author himself was driving at.
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- Omphalos
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Re: Jihadicus
This machine surrounds hate and forces it to surrenderSandRider wrote:this machine kills fascists ....
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Re: Jihadicus
Because this is a discussion board, perhaps?Streaksy wrote:Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
- SandRider
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Re: Jihadicus
also, he's a pedantic fascist ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
- lotek
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Re: Jihadicus
Well since you ask, I find myself rather shallow and pedantic.
http://www.myspace.com/video/mike-rochb ... c/26813275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.myspace.com/video/mike-rochb ... c/26813275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- Nekhrun
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Re: Jihadicus
There's still a MySpace?
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- Sandwurm88
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Re: Jihadicus
The moral of the story is that if you try to argue about the Dune Chronicles with Freakzilla, you will get your ass handed to you. Multiple times. With quotations tearing down your argument.
- lotek
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Re: Jihadicus
I hear Tom's still believes it anyway.Nekhrun wrote:There's still a MySpace?
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Jihadicus
I'm not arguing.
It is not the present which influences the future, thou fool, but the
future which forms the present. You have it all backward. Since the future is
set, an unfolding of events which will assure that future is fixed and
inevitable.
~CoD
It is not the present which influences the future, thou fool, but the
future which forms the present. You have it all backward. Since the future is
set, an unfolding of events which will assure that future is fixed and
inevitable.
~CoD
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- Freakzilla
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Re: Jihadicus
Actually, I do see his point. I just don't think the latter books had the same affect on Dune for me that he described. For some reason, in my mind Dune has remained more self-contained.
And maybe, since I first read Dune at 13, it has remained more of an adventure story with a happy ending more than the series of downers Cpt. Aramsham has listed.
And maybe, since I first read Dune at 13, it has remained more of an adventure story with a happy ending more than the series of downers Cpt. Aramsham has listed.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- Naïve mind
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Re: Jihadicus
Even that may be a forty-year old rationalizing the decisions he made as a child.Freakzilla wrote:After a long silence, Paul said: "The end adjusts the path behind it. JustCpt. Aramsham wrote:Incidentally, I think that's why he chooses this path, why he decides to lead the Fremen instead of trying to stop the jihad right away. It's so he can be with Chani.
once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I
did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader."
~Children of Dune
I think Hayt's analysis is the one most shorn of flattery. While the Atreides (until Leto II, at least) are regularly seen doubting how they must rule, they rarely question why they must rule; they are raised to expect obedience; they are conditioned to take responsibility.Dune Messiah wrote:
"No mentat knows what I believe!" She took two deep, shuddering breaths. "How dare you judge us?"
"Judge you? I don't judge."
"You've no idea how we were taught!"
"Both of you were taught to govern," he said. "You were conditioned to an overweening thirst for power. You were imbued with a shrewd grasp of politics and a deep understanding for the uses of war and ritual. Natural law? What natural law? That myth haunts human history. Haunts! It's a ghost. It's insubstantial, unreal. Is your Jihad a natural law?"
"Mentat jabber," she sneered.
"I'm a servant of the Atreides and I speak with candor," he said.
This may be the influence of the "old duke" that Jessica despises; the upbringing that makes it impossible for Leto Atreides to do what every one of us would do in his position; take his wife and son and run to Tupile, and let Arrakis sort itself out. It makes it impossible for Paul to seek employment as a guild navigator, retiring to obscurity between the stars, and throw away his father's signet ring. Or live out his life as any ordinary Fremen. The Atreides upbringing doesn't allow them to accept insignificance.
It may be that force and boyish pride, a desire for revenge, that causes the Jihad; blaming Chani sounds like rationalisation.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Jihadicus
Well, that's what I am.Naïve mind wrote:Even that may be a forty-year old rationalizing the decisions he made as a child.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman