Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

of course they can't. can they? i noticed that Scytale, the face dancer in Dune Messiah, becomes a master in Chapterhouse.

possibilities:

1. it's two different characters.
there are no other characters with the same name except Leto.
FH always differentiates between Leto I and Leto II, even though they have the same name.

2. it's the same character.
how is that possible? many passages point to the distinction between face dancers and masters, and nothing in the
books says that it can happen, and no explanation is given as to how Scytale changes from face dancer to master.
Paul kills Scytale in Dune Messiah, but the BT cloning allows it to be the same character. is it?

3. it's an oversight.
how dare i even think such a thing. i haven't found any others. not that i look for them. this just sticks out.

4. it's something else.
i'm all ears.

Number two ...

Thousands of years have passed since Dune. A face dancer could have been "promoted" to Master. The fact that Frank didn't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Serkanner wrote:Number two ...

Thousands of years have passed since Dune. A face dancer could have been "promoted" to Master. The fact that Frank didn't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

sounds reasonable to me, but it isn't in the books anywhere, as you mentioned. i would say that is what happened as well, unless someone has a quote or two that i have missed to explain it some other way. at this point i'm more interested in 'what is' than i am in 'what if', although it does raise the question 'were all masters at one time face dancers?'

well, crap, i didn't see the other string about this when i looked thru the first time. i hope you moderators can dump this. sorry.

hannabaal wrote:

Serkanner wrote:Number two ...

Thousands of years have passed since Dune. A face dancer could have been "promoted" to Master. The fact that Frank didn't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

sounds reasonable to me, but it isn't in the books anywhere, as you mentioned. i would say that is what happened as well, unless someone has a quote or two that i have missed to explain it some other way. at this point i'm more interested in 'what is' than i am in 'what if', although it does raise the question 'were all masters at one time face dancers?'

Somewhere in Heretics Waff mentions that this Scytale met Muad'Dib in person.

here it is:
"Every one of them here had been wakened time
after time in ghola flesh. There was a fleshly continuity in this Council that
no other people had ever achieved. Mirlat himself had seen the Prophet with his
own eyes. Scytale had spoken to Muad'dib! Learning how the flesh could be
renewed and the memories restored, they had condensed this power into a single
government whose potency was confined lest it be demanded everywhere. Only the
witches had a similar storehouse of experience upon which to draw and they moved
with fearful caution, terrified that they might produce another Kwisatz
Haderach!"

A the time of the original Scytale, ghola memory restoration had not been achieved. He was the only Tleilaxu we knew, besides Bijaz.

The Bene Tleilax created sligs, chairdogs, gholas, face dancers, twisted mentats... it is not inconceivable that they could reward Scytale for his work restoring a ghola's memory for the first time by cloning him and making him a master instead of a face dancer.

I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.

Freakzilla wrote: I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.

I never thought of this. Interesting idea.

Serkanner wrote:

Freakzilla wrote: I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.

I never thought of this. Interesting idea.

I always regarded him as a tool. Would a master really expose himself to danger like that? They still hadn't achieved immortality, but were just about to get lucky..

ULFsurfer wrote:

Serkanner wrote:

Freakzilla wrote: I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.

I never thought of this. Interesting idea.

I always regarded him as a tool. Would a master really expose himself to danger like that? They still hadn't achieved immortality, but were just about to get lucky..

Didn't Bijaz say he could get all his serial memories back after restoring Idaho's???

Who the fuck am I?

Freakzilla wrote:

ULFsurfer wrote:

Serkanner wrote:

Freakzilla wrote: I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.

I never thought of this. Interesting idea.

I always regarded him as a tool. Would a master really expose himself to danger like that? They still hadn't achieved immortality, but were just about to get lucky..

Didn't Bijaz say he could get all his serial memories back after restoring Idaho's???

Who the fuck am I?

correct:
"But I am not and the plan is not," Bijaz said. "By the tank in which I grew! It can be done! I shall have my pasts -- all of them. It needs only the right trigger."

Freakzilla wrote:

ULFsurfer wrote:

Serkanner wrote:

Freakzilla wrote: I believe that Bijaz was a prototype master.

I never thought of this. Interesting idea.

I always regarded him as a tool. Would a master really expose himself to danger like that? They still hadn't achieved immortality, but were just about to get lucky..

Didn't Bijaz say he could get all his serial memories back after restoring Idaho's???

Yeah you're right that was their plan. He also mentioned that he had been grown in the same tank as Hayt so I guess that makes sense. But could they be 100% sure it would work?
I just had the notion of them both being tools/toys or whatever you want to call it because Bijaz kept referring to "our masters Tleilaxu" in that chapter when he and Hayt had a long chat. Or maybe I just misunderstand what "master" means here.

Freakzilla wrote:Who the fuck am I?

You are lord Ming!

I don't remember writing that, must have been sober.

Don't do it again, it's scary.

You know Dune like the back of your hand, even when you're sober. That's pretty impressive.

ULFsurfer wrote:You know Dune like the back of your hand, even when you're sober. That's pretty impressive.

"Sometimes I amaze even myself."

i'm convinced by all. it's the same Scytale and he became a master.
anecdotally, Daniel and Marty were face dancers,
and it would appear that they are masters of themselves.
time to post another question.
thanks!

Freak wrote:Didn't Bijaz say he could get all his serial memories back after restoring Idaho's???

I like the idea that Bijaz was a prototype master.
I don't think that this was intended though.

For clarity's sake, they simply couldn't figure out how to do it, right?
(IF Idaho gets his memories back, we can duplicate the event.)

Why not?

Understand that it's pure speculation;
I can't imagine a master engineering his replacement.
BT knew serial memories were on the table.
There's something poetic about the creation supplanting the creator.

We don't know that there WERE castes before DM. Scytale seemed to have full decision making power and independence like a latter day master.

The way I see it, Bijaz and perhaps Skytale were purpose built for this project.
When a method of restoring memory was discovered, more prototypes were constructed to explore this new thing.
Sometime, probably during Letos reign, these prototypes took over & established the culture present in Heretics.

Aside from that, an interesting topic for fan fiction would be getting the info back to BT.

But this obviously wasn't Bijaz's first ghola lifetime. He may have been purpose built for this mission... but it wasn't the first time.

Agreed, these 'prototypes' would've come from proven stock.