Re: Evolution of the GP
Posted: 04 Jan 2013 14:01
And that's why I'm not a gambling man, and as he was prescient, hence why he couldn't be seen. I know I'd cocked it up.
DUNE DISCUSSION FORUM FOR ORTHODOX HERBERTARIANS
http://www.jacurutu.com/
I believe that Paul saw the possibility of the Golden Path, but not the need for it, and had he conducted it himself it would have simply been an act of cruelty with no noble purpose. Leto II saw the purpose in it, and since he admits freely that Paul's vision was at least at powerful, if not greater, than Leto's, I conclude as you do that the difference between their visions therefore lay in the difference between the men. There are a few possibilities:maccodacco wrote:If the oracle creates the future as much as he predicts it, is it not possible Paul could not see the Golden Path, since he was never able to do it in the first place? His son a of a different stock, more fremen and his personality consisting of a collection of leaders throughout human history, was able to see the golden path, because he was also already able to make the tough choice.
As I see it, Paul wouldn't be able to predict the extinction if the extinction was precipitated as a specific reaction to Leto II's tyranny. Since Paul couldn't see his son in the visions, any event brought about strictly as a result of Leto II's actions might not be apparent to Paul. Absent his son, Paul wouldn't see the extinction since Paul himself didn't want to be a God Emperor and therefore the extinction wouldn't actually happen. But since Leto II was of a different disposition than his father and would be willing to commit terrible acts for a noble purpose, the vision of the extinction would appear at the birth of Leto II.Freakzilla wrote:Paul never Saw the extinction of humanity so from his point of view the GP would just be an extremely cruel lesson.
I've often wondered if the extinction that Leto Saw and the GP would prevent was created by his vision. However, I don't think so if Paul could have done it too, even if unknowingly.
Since Paul didn't closely explore the details of the path involving his being the God Emperor, I guess he didn't chance upon the fact that one of those details was the extinction. He didn't consider that something in that future path might actually justify taking that path. The line about laughing alone seems to suggest that Paul cannot help but keep true to the principles of others such as his father, even if breaking them would have a good result. He can't just live as if only his views matter, as Leto is able to do. Paul subsequently says this regarding good results:CoD wrote:Tears slipped from the sightless eyes and Paul released his grip, dropped his hand to his side.
"If I'd chosen your way, I'd have become the bicouros of shaitan. What will you become?"
"For a time they'll call me the missionary of shaitan, too," Leto said.
"Then they'll begin to wonder and, finally, they'll understand. You didn't take
your vision far enough, father. Your hands did good things and evil."
"But the evil was known after the event!"
"Which is the way of many great evils," Leto said. "You crossed over only
into a part of my vision. Was your strength not enough?"
"You know I couldn't stay there. I could never do an evil act which was
known before the act. I'm not Jacurutu." He clambered to his feet. "Do you think
me one of those who laughs alone at night?"
"It is sad that you were never really Fremen," Leto said. "We Fremen know
how to commission the arifa. Our judges can choose between evils. It's always been that way for us."
Paul admits to having chosen the path of jihad to save Chani, which in his estimation was a betrayal of his ideals since he sacrificed others for himself and Chani. But if the end had been something nobler, it might have justified the jihad. Paul seems to be making a "the ends justify the means" statement, which accords with Leto's view. If Paul had realized that being God Emperor could have a noble purpose then it would have justified it.CoD wrote:After a long silence, Paul said: "The end adjusts the path behind it. Just
once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I
did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader."
And what it is to "be human" is expanded upon near the end of the chapter:CoD wrote:Leto spoke in a conversational tone, masking his own tensions, the balancing
effort this other-level contest required. "I have no passionate belief in truth,
no faith other than what I create," he said. And he felt then a movement between
himself and his father, something with granular characteristics which touched
only Leto's own passionately subjective belief in himself. By such belief he
knew that he posted the markers of the Golden Path. Someday such markers could
tell others how to be human, a strange gift from a creature who no longer would
be human on that day.
Unlike Leto, Paul was chained by some beliefs. While both of them had seemingly similar beliefs in the long-run, Leto accepts using methods Paul wouldn't condone. Does this mean that Leto is more in line with the Baron's view of ruling, which is that no method is unacceptable as long as the goal is achieved? If all that separates the Baron from Leto is their ultimate goal that does make Paul's choice to be a preacher rather than a ruler much more sympathetic to me. It also makes it all the more poignant that Leto's aunt should be possessed by the Baron, who shows what happens when an "ends justify the means" habit is embraced without having a noble purpose. FH seems to subtly suggest that 'noble' is an absolute value and that any enlightened being would probably agree with it given sufficient information.CoD wrote:"Fremen, is it? Slaves of the fate you helped to make?" Paul stepped toward
Leto, reached out in an oddly shy movement, touched Leto's sheathed arm,
explored up it to where the membrane exposed an ear, then the cheek and,
finally, the mouth. "Ahhhh, that is your own flesh yet," he said. "Where will
that flesh take you?" He dropped his hand.
"Into a place where humans may create their futures from instant to
instant."
I think it is more in line with the Fremen way: all is acceptable for the survival of the tribe.georgiedenbro wrote:While both of them had seemingly similar beliefs in the long-run, Leto accepts using methods Paul wouldn't condone. Does this mean that Leto is more in line with the Baron's view of ruling, which is that no method is unacceptable as long as the goal is achieved?
I guess I've never been able to reconcile that quote with this one:Freakzilla wrote:I think Paul's vision simply was not as strong as Leto's.
"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."
Still, even if it's inevitable, Leto could say, "fuck you, humanity", and make the selfish choice to live out a normal life. Even with his ancestral memories, Atreides and Fremen training, and prescience, it would be a unthinkable personal sacrifice and anyone would have doubts.
But maybe I've been misunderstanding the quote. When Paul asks Leto whether his vision is any better than Paul's, I had always thought he meant to ask whether Leto's prescience was more powerful than Paul's, thus affording him the ability to see things Paul couldn't see. I had thought Leto's answer meant that Leto wasn't any more of a KH than Paul was. But what if it means something else? The first bolded section indicates that Paul knows his vision was not absolutely identical to Leto's, but still similar. The difference might be just that each oracle will see things differently as per their individual differences, and it could also mean that no oracle can explore all the infinite paths and must do his best to just catch as many of them as possible to make a decision. Whichever it is, in the second bolded section what if Paul is actually asking Leto whether Leto's vision of the Golden Path is better than Pauls; not better in terms of accuracy, but better in terms of not being as cruel or tyrannical. Reworded, it might mean: "Is the future you see in your vision any more palatable than the one I saw in mine?" To which Leto answers that it isn't, and that perhaps Leto even intends to make it even more vicious than Paul had foreseen. If this reading is the correct one then there would be no contradiction and we could assume that Leto's prescience is more powerful than Paul's, in addition to the fact that Paul didn't even want to observe certain futures.CoD wrote:"Thousands of peaceful years," Leto said. "That's what I'll give them."
"Dormancy! Stagnation!"
"Of course. And those forms of violence which I permit. It'll be a lesson which humankind will never forget."
"I spit on your lesson!" Paul said. "You think I've not seen a thing similar to what you choose?"
"You saw it," Leto agreed.
"Is your vision any better than mine?"
"Not one whit better. Worse, perhaps," Leto said.
"Then what can I do but resist you?" Paul demanded.
Leto knows he is the only one aware of the problems, Paul & possibly Ghanima are the only peopleSerkanner wrote:I think it is more in line with the Fremen way: all is acceptable for the survival of the tribe.georgiedenbro wrote:While both of them had seemingly similar beliefs in the long-run, Leto accepts using methods Paul wouldn't condone. Does this mean that Leto is more in line with the Baron's view of ruling, which is that no method is unacceptable as long as the goal is achieved?
"I have no passionate belief in truth,
no faith other than what I create," he said. And he felt then a movement between
himself and his father, something with granular characteristics which touched
only Leto's own passionately subjective belief in himself. By such belief he
knew that he posted the markers of the Golden Path.
How you feel about this-your petty woes and joys, even your agonies andgeorgiedenbro wrote:I guess I'm just hesitant to admit anyone is better than Paul in the series! I'm a Paul fan.
Yeah, I had thought "vision" here referred to the ability to see (e.g. my vision is 20/20 and yours is 20/30, so my vision is better than yours) as opposed to referring to a specific vision. Now that I read it this way it fits in better with the rest and I'm in agreement with you.Freakzilla wrote: I've alawys interpreted that passage from C0D to mean that Leto's vision was crueler than Paul's.
Leto himself says exactly this.Serkanner wrote:I think it is more in line with the Fremen way: all is acceptable for the survival of the tribe.georgiedenbro wrote:While both of them had seemingly similar beliefs in the long-run, Leto accepts using methods Paul wouldn't condone. Does this mean that Leto is more in line with the Baron's view of ruling, which is that no method is unacceptable as long as the goal is achieved?
-----""You know I couldn't stay there. I could never do an evil act which was known before the act. I'm not Jacurutu..."
"It is sad that you were never really Fremen," Leto said. "We Fremen know how to commission the arifa. Our judges can choose between evils. It's always been that way for us."
Very good point. Though you know from another discussion that part of my take is that Leto's vision isn't necessarily deeper or more detailed, simply of a broader scope and a different perspective than navigating paths. Still, I like the above theory a lot, that he was asking of the vision not meaning Leto's ability being better but rather if Leto saw the outcome as any better. That's whats so wonderful about Dune and FH, there's so many ways to read each and every sentence and interaction, really layered and nuanced.georgiedenbro wrote:I guess I've never been able to reconcile that quote with this one:Freakzilla wrote:I think Paul's vision simply was not as strong as Leto's.
"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."
Still, even if it's inevitable, Leto could say, "fuck you, humanity", and make the selfish choice to live out a normal life. Even with his ancestral memories, Atreides and Fremen training, and prescience, it would be a unthinkable personal sacrifice and anyone would have doubts.
But maybe I've been misunderstanding the quote. When Paul asks Leto whether his vision is any better than Paul's, I had always thought he meant to ask whether Leto's prescience was more powerful than Paul's, thus affording him the ability to see things Paul couldn't see. I had thought Leto's answer meant that Leto wasn't any more of a KH than Paul was. But what if it means something else? The first bolded section indicates that Paul knows his vision was not absolutely identical to Leto's, but still similar. The difference might be just that each oracle will see things differently as per their individual differences, and it could also mean that no oracle can explore all the infinite paths and must do his best to just catch as many of them as possible to make a decision. Whichever it is, in the second bolded section what if Paul is actually asking Leto whether Leto's vision of the Golden Path is better than Pauls; not better in terms of accuracy, but better in terms of not being as cruel or tyrannical. Reworded, it might mean: "Is the future you see in your vision any more palatable than the one I saw in mine?" To which Leto answers that it isn't, and that perhaps Leto even intends to make it even more vicious than Paul had foreseen. If this reading is the correct one then there would be no contradiction and we could assume that Leto's prescience is more powerful than Paul's, in addition to the fact that Paul didn't even want to observe certain futures.CoD wrote:"Thousands of peaceful years," Leto said. "That's what I'll give them."
"Dormancy! Stagnation!"
"Of course. And those forms of violence which I permit. It'll be a lesson which humankind will never forget."
"I spit on your lesson!" Paul said. "You think I've not seen a thing similar to what you choose?"
"You saw it," Leto agreed.
"Is your vision any better than mine?"
"Not one whit better. Worse, perhaps," Leto said.
"Then what can I do but resist you?" Paul demanded.
Another fair point, he also had, as noted above, the Fremen perspective in OM that Paul lacked.It's also possible that Leto's vision was had more scope than Paul's simply because Leto already had Paul's memories of many paths and we might assume that Leto took those for granted and took the opportunity to observe other futures that Paul didn't have time to or didn't want to. If we think of this in terms of computing power, it might just mean that Leto's advantage over Paul was that Paul had already done a lot of legwork for him before he was born.
I can tell. I will say that I'm not one that agrees with the view of 'Paul the coward' or anything like that. I just think Paul wasn't truly equipped to do what Leto did, both in terms of raw ability and more importantly, in temperament, he was too much an Atreides. If Paul hadn't done what he had though, there would never had been a Leto II to take the sandtrout skin in the first place. I've always wondered what would have happened to humanity if Paul had either died in the Harkonnen attack or chosen to live peacefully among the Fremen forever instead of taking back the planet from the Emperor/Harkonnens. Like John the Baptist was to Jesus, Paul had to come first.I guess I'm just hesitant to admit anyone is better than Paul in the series! I'm a Paul fan.