Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

inhuien wrote:So does anyone have a suggestion why the BG stopped using poison X and moved over to Spice. Unless the timing of the switch has nothing more to do with it than BGs investigations surrounding the discovery of the Freman wild Reverend Mothers.

Because once a RM uses the spice overdose, the other poisons no longer work.

I never really understood that, but I think I get it now. Due to the way in which the spice overdose affects the potential RM, perhaps she can no longer Share with her sisters who used the other poisons. Of course, this would only matter if the spice overdose was more effective/useful for the BG, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to stop using those other poisons.

Tleszer wrote:I never really understood that, but I think I get it now. Due to the way in which the spice overdose affects the potential RM, perhaps she can no longer Share with her sisters who used the other poisons. Of course, this would only matter if the spice overdose was more effective/useful for the BG, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to stop using those other poisons.

I don't know WHY, just that Paul said it was so when he was threatening the Water of Death.

I've always imagined that the spice essence was just a better way, more powerfull, less/more positive side effects, available, etc...

That's my problem with the whole thing and why I keep circling it like a 1 legged drunk, WHY!

inhuien wrote:That's my problem with the whole thing and why I keep circling it like a 1 legged drunk, WHY!

Because it is not only a poison (as an overdose) but it also expands consciousness. That probably helps when dealing with ALL your ancestors, especially the female ones.

spammer

Thanks to a spammer I saw this topic pop up again...

Freakzilla wrote:

Tleszer wrote:I never really understood that, but I think I get it now. Due to the way in which the spice overdose affects the potential RM, perhaps she can no longer Share with her sisters who used the other poisons. Of course, this would only matter if the spice overdose was more effective/useful for the BG, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to stop using those other poisons.

I don't know WHY, just that Paul said it was so when he was threatening the Water of Death.

I've always imagined that the spice essence was just a better way, more powerfull, less/more positive side effects, available, etc...

Wouldn't the reason that other poisons stop working be because of the complexity of the Spice? Once you've converted Water of Life everything else is just too easy and would not pose any challenge or agony.

SandChigger wrote:Water of Life couldn't have been used before Jessica because until then only the Fremen knew of it.

(Unless Jessica was ignorant of it because she was only an acolyte. But if there was a secret trade in WoL going on between the BG & Fremen, wouldn't you think the former would have known a lot more about the situation on Arrakis, especially after the Atreides rout?)

SandChigger wrote: Mohiam is the Emperor's Truthsayer. She's a Reverend Mother. "We look down so many avenues of the past...." I think the implication is fairly clear there that she was changed using the drug. No? (And this was before anyone knew of the Water of Life used by the Fremen.)
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Out of the three times I have read Dune, I have never caught on to the fact that the drug she is referring to here is not the water of life. Now I definitely am curious about this subject of other drugs.

Nekhrun wrote: Wouldn't the reason that other poisons stop working be because of the complexity of the Spice? Once you've converted Water of Life everything else is just too easy and would not pose any challenge or agony.

So....this poison X was like mary jane of truthsaying versus the spice cocaine of Arrakis? Maybe that's a bad analogy. But I like how it works together.

Nekhrun wrote:Thanks to a spammer I saw this topic pop up again...

Freakzilla wrote:

Tleszer wrote:I never really understood that, but I think I get it now. Due to the way in which the spice overdose affects the potential RM, perhaps she can no longer Share with her sisters who used the other poisons. Of course, this would only matter if the spice overdose was more effective/useful for the BG, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to stop using those other poisons.

I don't know WHY, just that Paul said it was so when he was threatening the Water of Death.

I've always imagined that the spice essence was just a better way, more powerfull, less/more positive side effects, available, etc...

Wouldn't the reason that other poisons stop working be because of the complexity of the Spice? Once you've converted Water of Life everything else is just too easy and would not pose any challenge or agony.

Why would you even be trying to go through another agony after you've gone through the first one? That seems to be the big question to me, why would posion X stop working for some other person who never even went near the Spice Poison? As such there'd be no real reason for them to stop using it, especially if it were cheaper. Unless they were just so smitten with the new poison they wanted to use it exclusively for people attempting the agony - even then it's just a choice though.

Now, what about this - any old poison will work to make an RM through the agony, BUT that woman has to be addicted to the spice for anything to work at all. So without the spice, no more RMs, even though other poisons could potentially be used for the agony.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:That seems to be the big question to me, why would posion X stop working for some other person who never even went near the Spice Poison?

Aren't we saying that it no longer works for the individual who has been exposed to the WOL? They would still work just fine for anyone who's not taken it yet.

Nekhrun wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:That seems to be the big question to me, why would posion X stop working for some other person who never even went near the Spice Poison?

Aren't we saying that it no longer works for the individual who has been exposed to the WOL? They would still work just fine for anyone who's not taken it yet.

Right, but what I'm saying is why would a person who's already taken WOL (or poison x for that matter) care at all about taking and converting poison again, seems a moot point (aside from the wild RMs and their spice orgies, but they are obviously exempt from this discussion).

What does "stop working" even mean in the context of something that only happens once in a person's life? That's like saying after you kill someone with a chainsaw, a knife will no longer work to kill them.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:That seems to be the big question to me, why would posion X stop working for some other person who never even went near the Spice Poison?

Aren't we saying that it no longer works for the individual who has been exposed to the WOL? They would still work just fine for anyone who's not taken it yet.

Right, but what I'm saying is why would a person who's already taken WOL (or poison x for that matter) care at all about taking and converting poison again, seems a moot point (aside from the wild RMs and their spice orgies, but they are obviously exempt from this discussion).

What does "stop working" even mean in the context of something that only happens once in a person's life? That's like saying after you kill someone with a chainsaw, a knife will no longer work to kill them.

Got it. Wouldn't taking it again give one the same rush of whatever it is? It's the same reason I've continued to get drunk after the first time it happened. I think "stop working" would be something along the lines of no longer offering the same type of mind-altering experience. Kind of like a DMT hallucination.

Nekhrun wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:That seems to be the big question to me, why would posion X stop working for some other person who never even went near the Spice Poison?

Aren't we saying that it no longer works for the individual who has been exposed to the WOL? They would still work just fine for anyone who's not taken it yet.

Right, but what I'm saying is why would a person who's already taken WOL (or poison x for that matter) care at all about taking and converting poison again, seems a moot point (aside from the wild RMs and their spice orgies, but they are obviously exempt from this discussion).

What does "stop working" even mean in the context of something that only happens once in a person's life? That's like saying after you kill someone with a chainsaw, a knife will no longer work to kill them.

Got it. Wouldn't taking it again give one the same rush of whatever it is? It's the same reason I've continued to get drunk after the first time it happened. I think "stop working" would be something along the lines of no longer offering the same type of mind-altering experience. Kind of like a DMT hallucination.

Right, so the question then is what exactly is this mind altering experience. If the RM is an RM, then what is it they're hoping to acheive when they take either WOL or poison X? I'm getting the feeling I'm forgetting something from the first book here...

A Thing of Eternity wrote:If the RM is an RM, then what is it they're hoping to acheive when they take either WOL or poison X? I'm getting the feeling I'm forgetting something from the first book here...

I don't think that much is ever stated in any of the books. Jessica and Paul give us the most in-depth look at what a spice trance is like. Once being opened up to the minutiae of everything around you that the spice allows perhaps other drugs don't allow for that kind of attention to detail while still remaining conscious.

The individuals undergoing the Agony don't really have much of a choice which narcotic they OD on, the choice is that of the administrator, perhaps WoL/Spice essence is just cleaner.

Converting the narcotic poison gives them ACCESS to OM. Afterwards, it puts them into the Truthtrance/Spicetrance.

Isn't there a better topic for this discussion?

Right, forgot about the truthtrance - not sure what the point of said trance is seeing as they can already tell if people are lying, but that makes sense - once they use the WOL for the trance then other shit don't work.

I assumed the trance just heightened those abilities, especially for those who weren't good at it naturally.

Definitely makes sense. I think it was one of those ideas FH kinda abandoned because he didn't feel too strongly about it - unless I'm mistaken he never brings it up again in later books?

He revisits it in HoD with Rebecca's husband (Shoel?) who was a natural.

I was wondering if addiction to spice had any effect on which poison they could use?

Mandy wrote:I was wondering if addiction to spice had any effect on which poison they could use?

Of course, and the spice-whatever was probably more potent.