Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I have a question about the way the Guild order was structured. There is a quote in Dune that implies there are at least three stages of navigator. Is anyone else aware of more on this? Other than what the '84 movie gives us, that is.

"All at the powindah conference affirmed this," Waff said. "Even a third-stage
Guild steersman agrees."
~Heretics of Dune

That's the first instance I know of.

Coincidentally, HoD came out just the same year as the movie.

I think it was a Lynch thing that FH picked up.

yes, I'd say their aren't "stages" in any official sense. I'm sure the Guildsman goes through different developmental stages from human to full Steersman but based on FH,BH&KJA stuff, I doubt that the Guild is like "Hey you got webbed feet this week! Some....one... is getting a merit badge!"

Freakzilla wrote:"All at the powindah conference affirmed this," Waff said. "Even a third-stage
Guild steersman agrees."
~Heretics of Dune

That's the first instance I know of.

Coincidentally, HoD came out just the same year as the movie.

I think it was a Lynch thing that FH picked up.

Was it really HoD? I thought that there was something in Dune itself. Or maybe during the scene where Scytale, Edric, Mohiam and Irulan are scheming in DM? Hmmm.

I'm 61 pages into Dune Messiah. I haven't encountered any mention of "stages" as yet, but I'll make sure to note any instances and the page number.

Thanks, GamePlayer!

No problem. Is there anything else I should note? I'm going through the book now so it's a good time. I might just take a few notes of important facts and mentions for future reference.

I have noted that they make mention of the color of the spice (blue, as opposed to my erroneous impression at one time that I thought it was green). They also make mention of the fish-like appearance of the navigators or "steersmen" very early on in the book. I think the first chapter. Oh and the metal Ixian eyes are mentioned for the first time when the Ghola arrives.

Edric refers to himself as a "full" Guild Navigator who has the "Power," but no mention of stages, as far as I know.

GamePlayer wrote:No problem. Is there anything else I should note? I'm going through the book now so it's a good time. I might just take a few notes of important facts and mentions for future reference.

I have noted that they make mention of the color of the spice (blue, as opposed to my erroneous impression at one time that I thought it was green). They also make mention of the fish-like appearance of the navigators or "steersmen" very early on in the book. I think the first chapter. Oh and the metal Ixian eyes are mentioned for the first time when the Ghola arrives.

I used to picture it as cinnamon red before I caught on that it was blue in tint.
As for the Steersmen, I think the one in the CoD-mini was closest to the fish like description.

I'd always wondered where Lynch got "vagina for mouth.. attached to a fleshy chunk of ugly" from! I love the 84 DUNE but that navigator is all wrong.

The Lynch navigator (courtesy of the brilliant Carlo Rambaldi) was indeed way off as far as canon, but the creature was a great special effects creation in and of itself.

Simon wrote:yes, I'd say their aren't "stages" in any official sense. I'm sure the Guildsman goes through different developmental stages from human to full Steersman but based on FH,BH&KJA stuff, I doubt that the Guild is like "Hey you got webbed feet this week! Some....one... is getting a merit badge!"

Damn, I was trying for the webbed feet merit badge!

I thought Edric in the COD Mini was pretty accurate.

Freakzilla wrote:I thought Edric in the COD Mini was pretty accurate.

QFT.

Although, he wasn't wearing a leotard, didn't have a bulgy utility belt at his waist, and didn't pop spice pills. I guess one can't be TOO picky.

Phaedrus wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I thought Edric in the COD Mini was pretty accurate.

QFT.

Although, he wasn't wearing a leotard, didn't have a bulgy utility belt at his waist, and didn't pop spice pills. I guess one can't be TOO picky.

QFT?

Anatomically he seemed correct, as far as I could tell.

Quoted for Truth.

I agree, although I always did imagine him a bit more...human.

Phaedrus wrote:Quoted for Truth.

D'oh, I don't think that's the first time I've asked you what that means. Maybe I'll remember it now.

Freakzilla wrote:I thought Edric in the COD Mini was pretty accurate.

::nodding vigorously:: I agree!

GodEmperorJason wrote:

Simon wrote:yes, I'd say their aren't "stages" in any official sense. I'm sure the Guildsman goes through different developmental stages from human to full Steersman but based on FH,BH&KJA stuff, I doubt that the Guild is like "Hey you got webbed feet this week! Some....one... is getting a merit badge!"

Damn, I was trying for the webbed feet merit badge!

I love Lynch's navigator, its appearance truly showed that we were in an alien universe that had diverged far from our own, much more interesting than the Star Trek approach to aliens.

Rob

Phaedrus wrote:Quoted for Truth.

hehe my first thought was that you meant "Quit Fucking Talking" But WTF do I know we're always quick to take offence here in Glasgow, Ya Bam

Omphalos wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:"All at the powindah conference affirmed this," Waff said. "Even a third-stage
Guild steersman agrees."
~Heretics of Dune

That's the first instance I know of.

Coincidentally, HoD came out just the same year as the movie.

I think it was a Lynch thing that FH picked up.

Was it really HoD? I thought that there was something in Dune itself. Or maybe during the scene where Scytale, Edric, Mohiam and Irulan are scheming in DM? Hmmm.

Well, in Dune, the two Navigators at the end of the book, the ones with Shaddam, are not in a tank full of spice, they just look human, but Paul calls them Navigators, because they could foresee that Paul would destroy the spice if the fleet does not leave...so maybe it's a clue that there is more than one stage ??

I think Frank kept evolving the concept of navigator though it is possible that the guild had layers of bureaucracy and used generic titles to further blur the lines and to keep a sense of mystery as well as creating a screen to hide their operations from prying eyes.

Rob

Rakis wrote:

Omphalos wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:"All at the powindah conference affirmed this," Waff said. "Even a third-stage
Guild steersman agrees."
~Heretics of Dune

That's the first instance I know of.

Coincidentally, HoD came out just the same year as the movie.

I think it was a Lynch thing that FH picked up.

Was it really HoD? I thought that there was something in Dune itself. Or maybe during the scene where Scytale, Edric, Mohiam and Irulan are scheming in DM? Hmmm.

Well, in Dune, the two Navigators at the end of the book, the ones with Shaddam, are not in a tank full of spice, they just look human, but Paul calls them Navigators, because they could foresee that Paul would destroy the spice if the fleet does not leave...so maybe it's a clue that there is more than one stage ??

I always imagined there were three stages; first stage is normal looking and prescient like the Guild agents at the end of Dune, third stage is in a tank like Edric, and second is somewhere between. There's next to nothing about it in the books.

They were planning some sort of second stage Navigator in the Lynch film, but it was cut because of budget or something. I think it was because they were afraid of getting sued by the Elephant man...

http://www.duneinfo.com/arrakis/navigators/

(Scroll down a little)