Alleged Cliff-Hanger: There is no "Dune 7"

[Naïve mind]

Still want to see these ... "notes."

Want 'em unedited, unabridged, unfucked. Organized by either plot line or by character arc. Even FH couldn't have kept *everything* in his head.

Of course, having the notes wouldn't tell you which story lines Herbert would've dismissed later on. Or changed beyond comprehension. It'd give you the idea, but not the execution.

"Paul's son turns into a giant sandworm" would've been a perfectly adequate note for Children of Dune and God-Emperor ... and probably would've sounded completely ridiculous to someone who had just read the first novel in 1966.

In that sense, I can understand KJA putting the blame for the poor reception of Dune 7's on Frank Herbert's notes. A man's writing should aspire to more than badly edited free association.

[Omphalos]

Still want to see these ... "notes."

Want 'em unedited, unabridged, unfucked. Organized by either plot line or by character arc. Even FH couldn't have kept *everything* in his head.

Of course, having the notes wouldn't tell you which story lines Herbert would've dismissed later on. Or changed beyond comprehension. It'd give you the idea, but not the execution.

"Paul's son turns into a giant sandworm" would've been a perfectly adequate note for Children of Dune and God-Emperor ... and probably would've sounded completely ridiculous to someone who had just read the first novel in 1966.

In that sense, I can understand KJA putting the blame for the poor reception of Dune 7's on Frank Herbert's notes. A man's writing should aspire to more than badly edited free association.

Bullshit. Don't believe a word of what these two fucktards say. There was no "outline." When Herbert got an idea for a character he didn't sit down and put it on paper. He cut out magazine photos and put images together like Jim Carey's character did in The Truman Show. When he got a story idea he sat down and typed a story or a passage, or put together research together and saved it with margin notes until he was ready to take a crack. Or he wrote a long letter to someone to bounce the idea off of them and see what they thought. He never, ever sat down and did a "I., A., 1., a.," type of thing. Ive been to the Herbert archives in Fullerton three times and I have seen every damn thing that someone though to save from his office, and there is nothing of the kind in there. I've looked through the files for all of his surviving newspaper articles and there is not one damn outline anywhere in there.

Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are lying liars of lies. There is no truth at all to what they say. Not even a kernel.

[trang]

Still want to see these ... "notes."

Want 'em unedited, unabridged, unfucked. Organized by either plot line or by character arc. Even FH couldn't have kept *everything* in his head.

Of course, having the notes wouldn't tell you which story lines Herbert would've dismissed later on. Or changed beyond comprehension. It'd give you the idea, but not the execution.

"Paul's son turns into a giant sandworm" would've been a perfectly adequate note for Children of Dune and God-Emperor ... and probably would've sounded completely ridiculous to someone who had just read the first novel in 1966.

In that sense, I can understand KJA putting the blame for the poor reception of Dune 7's on Frank Herbert's notes. A man's writing should aspire to more than badly edited free association.

Bullshit. Don't believe a word of what these two fucktards say. There was no "outline." When Herbert got an idea for a character he didn't sit down and put it on paper. He cut out magazine photos and put images together like Jim Carey's character did in The Truman Show. When he got a story idea he sat down and typed a story or a passage, or put together research together and saved it with margin notes until he was ready to take a crack. Or he wrote a long letter to someone to bounce the idea off of them and see what they thought. He never, ever sat down and did a "I., A., 1., a.," type of thing. Ive been to the Herbert archives in Fullerton three times and I have seen every damn thing that someone though to save from his office, and there is nothing of the kind in there. I've looked through the files for all of his surviving newspaper articles and there is not one damn outline anywhere in there.

Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are lying liars of lies. There is no truth at all to what they say. Not even a kernel.

So let me get this straight.. they are liars and there was no outline... just making sure:)
Got it:)

[queotic]

certainly possible. I've considered wither the dune 7 book would be placed even further in the future and not be centered around the no-ship but rather a universe with them removed.

Going with Herbert's habit of hiding things in plain sight, I believe that, if there were to be a "Dune 7," it would have been set 10,000 years after the events of Children of Dune. In Heretics, one of the epigraphs is:

Ten thousand years since Leto II began his metamorphosis from human into the sandworm of Rakis and historians still argue over his motives. Was he driven by the desire for long life? He lived more than ten times the normal span of three hundred SY, but consider the price he paid. Was it the lure of power? He is called the Tyrant for good reason but what did power bring him that a human might want? Was he driven to save humankind from itself? We have only his own words about his Golden Path to answer this and I cannot accept the self-serving records of Dar-es-Balat. Might there have been other gratifications, which only his experiences would illuminate? Without better evidence the question is moot. We are reduced to saying only that "He did it!" The physical fact alone is undeniable.

-The Metamorphosis of Leto II, 10,000th Anniversary Peroration by Gaus Andaud

[distrans]

if we are intending to come to some conclusions about what Frank Herbert intended for "Dune 7",
we must consider the possibility that he had no intentions at all ....

He was a fan of Alan watts after all...

[xcalibur]

hope you don't mind me replying to an old thread!

I think a Dune 7 was planned. I don't know if the outline & notes existed, or whether these were fabricated by Brian & Kevin. if any such notes exist, no matter how abstract or incoherent, it is a travesty not to publish them. But Brian & Kevin won't publish, because either A) they don't exist, or B) they contradict their bilge.

there's an overarching structure to the Dune novels: two trilogies, punctuated by God Emperor. the first trilogy centers on Paul Muad'dib, the Faufreluches, Jihad etc, while the second trilogy is focused on the aftermath of the Scattering, the war with Honored Matres, etc. in both trilogies, the books follow each other sequentially. the exception is God Emperor, the lone centerpiece, placed between the trilogies and separated from them by millennia.

based on this design, I'm almost certain that Dune 7 was planned, would've been set just after Chapterhouse, and would've been the final book. but, due to Frank's death, we must accept the attitude of the knife and be grateful for what we've got.

[Freakzilla]

hope you don't mind me replying to an old thread!

I encourage it. I'd rather have one long thread on a topic than a bunch of duplicates.

[the rev]

The first time I saw a reference to a cliffhanger I did a double take. Felt like I'd missed a book or a chapter or several pages. When I checked I was right, it ended like I thought it did. The cliffhanger is nonsense.

We'll never know and I don't feel a need to know, if Frank was planning a sequel. If he was it was in it's very earliest stages, roughest of outlines. Any further then that and they'd have published it for big $$. Any unreleased original material is gold. They've kept a tight wrap on it which means they're either lying which I feel is less likely, they aren't that creative. Or it's just an idea or two which they either ignored or ham-fistedly buried in all the nonsense.

I feel the ending is perfect, it's open ended. Like the ending to Destination:Void or Children of Dune or Whipping Star. Hell if he'd stopped at Dune Messiah that ending would have been fine. Too good of a writer not to finish a book the right way. The only reason to end a book in a cliffhanger is if you're worried about the sequel's pre-sales. (R R Martin?)

[Freakzilla]

I agree, there's no cliffhanger. No more than at the end of GEoD. Sure, I wanted to know what happened next, but I didn't expect it to be anything that would threaten humanity, it would just have been... what happened next.

[georgiedenbro]

I don't think I'd call the end of CH:D a cliffhanger, but then again the only book in the entire series that feels like it needed a sequel was Heretics. The rest of them work as standalone stories that expand on the universe and themes. But while i don't think CH:D ends on a cliffhanger, I definitely think he was moving the story towards a huge revelation for us, so as to explain a lot of the 'why' of the previous books. Unless I'm very mistaken about where he was going with the series (and I might be!) I don't think he had wrapped up the thesis of the series, if you will, by the end of CH:D. I mean, he had definitely told what he wanted to tell as early as Dune itself, in terms of ecology, and not following charismatic leaders, but the entire political ramification of how humanity could ever get away from following charismatic leaders was only beginning to be suggested in GEoD, and hints at how it might shift to something else brought up in Heretics and CH:D.

The sheer amount of questions and speculation we have regarding M&D, 'the net', what Duncan was thinking in purging the computer before jumping out, and why he had full access to his serial memories, are all - I think - tied in together and were going to be explained in Dune 7. And especially the manner in which Sheeana was going to have a significant impact wasn't clarified yet, together with how Duncan was going to have an impact on anything. HoD and CH:D were practically only the prologue to Duncan's story by the feel of it, and his main contribution was going to come next. All we got from him so far was being a serial ghola awakened, and knowing what's involved in a double-imprinting. Beyond that he had almost no agency, and based on his musings in CH:D especially I feel like his musings were leading up to something.

[SadisticCynic]

...I mean, he had definitely told what he wanted to tell as early as Dune itself, in terms of ecology, and not following charismatic leaders...

Just one comment on that, I'm fairly certain there's a quote from Herbert saying that the first three were conceived together.

[pcqypcqy]

I think there was more story to tell.

Reading the last few responses to this thread jogged my memory about Odrade's experience in Tabr in Heretics, as she climbs the stairs:

"MY WORDS ARE YOUR PAST,
"MY QUESTIONS ARE SIMPLE:
"WITH WHOM DO YOU ALLY?
"WITH THE SELF-IDOLATORS OF TLEILAX?
"WITH MY FISH SPEAKER BUREAUCRACY?
"WITH THE COSMOS-WANDERING GUILD?
"WITH HARKONNEN BLOOD SACRIFICERS?
"WITH A DOGMATIC SINK OF YOUR OWN CREATION?
"HOW WILL YOU MEET YOUR END?
"AS NO MORE THAN A SECRET SOCIETY?"
Odrade climbed past the questions, reading them a second time as she went.
Noble purpose? What a fragile thing that always was. And how easily distorted.
But the power was there immersed in constant peril. It was all spelled out on
the walls and stairs of that chamber. Taraza knew without having it explained.
The Tyrant's meaning was clear:
"Join me!"

Now I might be reading too much into this, but Odrade then spends most of Chapterhouse plotting to coopt the HM's, perhaps not only to ensure BG survival, but maybe because it was required to join the Tyrant and ensure the golden path?

A lot of threads were developed in Heretics and Chapterhouse that really deserve another story. Frank seemed to put more effort into them than the side threads he did in previous books.

But, I would reluctantly agree that nothing was left particularly hanging at the end of Chapterhouse. I just wish there was more to read.

[georgiedenbro]

...I mean, he had definitely told what he wanted to tell as early as Dune itself, in terms of ecology, and not following charismatic leaders...

Just one comment on that, I'm fairly certain there's a quote from Herbert saying that the first three were conceived together.

I think so too. But in my view DM and CoD are sort of extrapolations of what FH laid out in Dune; an expansion and exploration of the themes already presented. The idea of being trapped in plans of your own making, and of charismatic leaders being a dangerous thing, and of how ecology shapes society - all of these were laid out in Dune pretty well. DM gives us a much clearer look on the nature of the prescient trap, and also how prescience in the wrong hands can lead to madness. CoD does feel like a bridge between Dune and GEoD, and I would tend to agree that the Golden Path was a new feature it introduced, which is really significant. But I don't think that, having read only Dune, there are aspects of its own story that are left hanging or undefined, requiring another book to explain them. That's my main point here. I think you *could* stop after any book and have gotten the full measure of what you needed to understand it, with the sole exception of Heretics, which I really think can't stand on its own that well without CH:D to follow it. From that perspective I would be tempted to call those two alone a duology. But I don't get the feeling so much that those two plus Dune 7 would have formed a trilogy, exactly, in the sense of the 1st and 2nd books only being stepping stones to get to the third.

[Freakzilla]

Parts of DM and CoD were written with Dune, which I think is the only one that can stand alone. I do think that by the end of writing Dune he had the 3 book series in mind though. I think it could have ended with CoD, Ghanima's little speach at the end is sweeping and grand. GEoD can stand alone WITHIN the series, but there's no way you could pick it up and enjoy it as much without the previous three, especially not CoD (my favorite). It too could have been an ending. It was spelled out very well what Leto expected to happen when he died (divided), even a little bit in Cod. HoD and CH:D still seem like "what happened next" books though I agree with y'all that FH certainly was going somewhere with a D7. Sheeana, Duncan, Teg and Scytale lost in an unknown universe would have been great to read about, but it's still just what happened next. Unless there's any way that all of humanity could be threatened, and that would make Leto and the GP less holy and I just don't like it.

[georgiedenbro]

Freakzilla,

I don't think I was clear in my post, and I agree with your objection. I didn't mean to say that Dune was written without thought to sequels, or that each book was conceived as a standalone. What I meant was that if you linearly read through from Dune, you could stop after any given book and feel like the story was wrapped up and the themes as presented showed what they needed to. So you could read Dune and stop, and feel satisfied; or go on to read DM and stop, and see the conclusion as Paul stepping down from the prescient trap. Likewise with all the rest, except for Heretics, which feels to me much more like an unfinished narrative requiring a sequel to resolve what's going on. That's what I personally call a duology: a set of books written almost as two chapters to a continuing plotline. I don't think any other of the books leaves me feeling like the story isn't concluded.

[pcqypcqy]

I think it could have ended with CoD, Ghanima's little speach at the end is sweeping and grand.

Over the years I've actually come to think that all of FH's endings are quite camp and poor. It's like an editor has smashed him over the head and said "EXPOSITION!!!". They just seem to attempt to wrap things up in a neat little package, and don't necessarily gel with the rest of the story. The one exception to this ironically is probably Chapterhouse, because there was maybe more story to tell.

HoD and CH:D still seem like "what happened next" books though I agree with y'all that FH certainly was going somewhere with a D7. Sheeana, Duncan, Teg and Scytale lost in an unknown universe would have been great to read about, but it's still just what happened next. Unless there's any way that all of humanity could be threatened, and that would make Leto and the GP less holy and I just don't like it.

What happened next is probably a good explanation, and fits in with the idea that publishers were just throwing FG money to keep writing books, so he did. Not wanting to drag any of the KJA/Brian plots into this, but a lot of Chapterhouse discussed the infinite nature of the scattering, and that all things were possible. Something was driving the HM's back into the old empire. Face Dancers that had broken free of the BT were mentioned, and sound to be the handlers. The HM's were co-opted by the BG for a reason, more than just survival. I think there's enough there that FH had a reasonable idea of where this was going, and that there's a threat to humanity that doesn't contradict GEoD at all.

[Freakzilla]

The HM retreated because they wanted BG immunity from diseases, lost spice knowledge, they'd been beaten by the AFDs.

How can any force threaten all of infinite humanity?

[georgiedenbro]

How can any force threaten all of infinite humanity?

I suppose the answer would have to be 'a new kind of threat'. Something involving folding space and conducting actual military attacks would surely be useless in chasing down infinite humanity, as you suggest, especially since it would seem that it's possible to shield parts of humanity from prescience. So based on everything known at the time there would be nothing that could threaten that. But maybe something new? It would have to be something where all of humanity no matter the location could be struck more or less at once, regardless of distance; or at least targetted at once. So for there to be that kind of possibility we would have to suggest some connection between all of humanity, and that we are not actually 'separate' from each other despite the fact of 3-D space being between us. In such a schema maybe it would be possible to trace those threads of connection and strike at everyone at once. Heck if I know whether FH was going to suggest such a thing. Based on M&D's failure to track the ship we seem to get no sign of that as of the end of CH:D.

[Freakzilla]

The Net. Combine the Net's ability to communicate across space and Teg's ability to see no ships (people?)...

[georgiedenbro]

The Net. Combine the Net's ability to communicate across space and Teg's ability to see no ships (people?)...

Yes, if there was going to be an X-factor here I think it was some combination of Duncan and Teg. In Teg's case it's his abiility to see no-ships; and then we also have no explanation as of yet regarding being The Flash. In Duncan's case there is the connection between all his past selves regardless of whether he has their DNA or not. So these are some 'physics features' that as of yet have no explanation given what we've been told before.

If Dune does in fact share a physics with the Destination: Void world, then we'd have to consider that being 'fully awake' means that consciousness involves way more than just awareness of your immediate surroundings. Ship, being an example of being conscious fully, does seem to be able to have instantaneous contact with all places in both time and space; the separation of distance and time would seen to be a limitation only imposed on our being mostly asleep. In that universe there would seem to be no problem assuming that Ship could have been capable to eliminating all of humanity needing to worry about tracking them all down.

[pcqypcqy]

The Net. Combine the Net's ability to communicate across space and Teg's ability to see no ships (people?)...

Absolutely. Teg seeing no-ships should be a significant event that would upset all existing power balances. To know the thing could be done. And if it was done in the old empire, perhaps it was almost certainly achieved in the scattering? Law of large numbers and all that.

Merely knowing it could be done -- that a human could be sensitized to detect no-ships and the other forms of that shielding -- would have an unbalancing effect on their universe.

And the Net is definitely one of those themes that FH spent some time developing, and it was a total tease in Chapterhouse. Quite a few concepts to unpack in there, especially about Duncan and Teg 'thinning'.

Just these two points alone would set up an interesting plot basis for Dune 7, and FH being the writer he was, probably could have made it all fit without too much contradiction to GEoD (if he truly hadn't planned this out beforehand).

Scytale was also gearing up to do something.

[Freakzilla]

And then you have Sheeana... All of them together could certainly spell trouble. But for all of humanity?

[pcqypcqy]

And then you have Sheeana... All of them together could certainly spell trouble. But for all of humanity?

Maybe, maybe not. Would have been a good read though.

[Freakzilla]

And then you have Sheeana... All of them together could certainly spell trouble. But for all of humanity?

Maybe, maybe not. Would have been a good read though.

[Cpt. Aramsham]

He never, ever sat down and did a "I., A., 1., a.," type of thing. Ive been to the Herbert archives in Fullerton three times and I have seen every damn thing that someone though to save from his office, and there is nothing of the kind in there. I've looked through the files for all of his surviving newspaper articles and there is not one damn outline anywhere in there.

While it's sadly too late now to discuss it with Omphalos, I don't understand why he would write this. There very clearly are outlines among the papers at Fullerton, among papers he had seen.