Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

...it occurred to me that Messiah might be favorite Dune novel. It's probably the hardest to fully understand but the most rewarding once you've got it under your belt.

I heart Messiah — it's my favorite in the "Not Dune, Which Gets Its Own Category Since It Started the Whole Thing" division.

Messiah has been my favorite for a while, but God Emperor is almost tied with it.

What I like about Messiah is that it's the book that makes one of the central points of Dune, the dangers of being too centralized and following Heroes. Dune on it's own really doesn't do this, and CoD doesn't add to it other than with the Preacher.

Apparently some people were confused by Paul's downfall though...

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Apparently some people were confused by Paul's downfall though...

which makes even more interesting, as it goes against your deep ingrained instinct to look for a ultra-hero that'll save the day without doubting his destiny.

How people can moan about that instead of admiring the artistic courage it takes to cripple your all-powerful hero? Beats me...

I love Dune Messiah.

One of the best books in the series.

I'm still leaning toward GEoD as my favorite (Leto II is still the most fascinating character in fiction), but from a technical standpoint DM is probably the best paced. I feel that Frank probably had DM on the drawing board the longest, and it got the most fat cut off. Of course he balked at the idea of giving the fans anything less than as much as he could possibly muster, and therefore, we get a labor of love left turn instead of a "SUPERCHARGE EVERYTHING" Hollywood type sequel.

Tleszer wrote:Messiah has been my favorite for a while, but God Emperor is almost tied with it.

I'm the same way. Messiah is where the Dune Sage truly blossoms.

Rob

A Thing of Eternity wrote:What I like about Messiah is that it's the book that makes one of the central points of Dune, the dangers of being too centralized and following Heroes.

Completely agree. When people say that "you should read Dune and then stop" when talking about the series, I just shake my head in bafflement. Dune is a magnificent book, but if you don't read DM, you kinda miss the point.

Consequences, baby.

HBJ

Yeah, Messiah was pretty damn good. It illustrated how not even allegedly messianic figures were infallible. Even they can fall to the trappings of their own design and folly.

Tleszer wrote:Messiah has been my favorite for a while, but God Emperor is almost tied with it.

Children of Dune has a certain satisfaction to it, as Paul's legacy is "saved" by his children....finally, Frank writes something that isn't completely self-negating (the hero's victory is so painful, e.g. the loss of Leto 2.0 and his failure to avert the Jihad, that it almost feels like a defeat)! But, I definitely have to say the mysterious nature of Leto II as a sandtrout-human hybrid and the entire concept of the Golden Path stands head and shoulders above the rest of the series IMO.

I should probably re-read all the books from scratch. But when I first read Messiah I felt it was a 'worthy' sequel but not the standout classic that Dune was. Children of Dune I think was a bit disappointing, series lost its steam, although the ending was cool. It was a couple of years before I picked up God Emperor of Dune, but I remember thinking 'this is possibly better than Dune!' At any rate it reinvented the series and made Leto II the central character of the whole saga (quite something considering how strong a hero Muad'dib already was). A few years later I read Heretics (I think I delayed because GEoD seemed sufficiently 'final' to me), and I was like 'this is amazing! This is as exciting as Dune but as fascinating as GEoD!' The twists, the new characters, the ascendancy of the Tlielaxu, the threat of the HM, made such a great mix. ChapterHouse Dune wasn't as good but it was setting up something greater. I think by ChapterHouse it had become apparent that the Bene Gesserit were the real, ever present protagonists of the series. The relevance of the Old Empire in a post-Scattering universe sort of undermines the gravity of the later books, so I'm guessing Herbert was building towards the Bene Gesserit forming the 'ultimate' society or something, having absorbed all the lessons of the ages better than everyone else. And they'd have to fend off a greater threat than ever before

I think Heretics is my favourite, followed by Dune and GEoD tied for second. CoD my least favourite.

Tycho wrote:CoD my least favourite.

I think Children was the most fun to read, the most enjoyable, and I couldn't
put my finger on just why, but I sure remember thinking that when it (finally) came
out, and the same on all the re-reads - I enjoy Children ... but by the time Children
was published, I was convinced that Messiah was the ultimate statement, the perfect
novel, in the classical sense; I also still think much of the import and sheer mystical,
subliminal messages would transfer to someone who had never read any of Frank's
books...

yeah, by about 74 or so, I sorta thought of Messiah as a "holy book" - not in the literal,
wingnut way, but in the same way we talked about the Divinity of Eric Clapton ...

I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.

Freakzilla wrote:I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.

Me too. I love it up until the end of the meeting at the beginning, then it just goes downhill for me. Children I loved, and GEoD is probably my favorite of the Dune books. And yes, that damn dwarf has always driven me nuts.

Freakzilla wrote:I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.

If there was anything the rest of the Dune series is missing, it's more dwarves.

Superdog wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.

If there was anything the rest of the Dune series is missing, it's more dwarves.

Dwarfs would be more apropriate than robots.

Bijaz is the most important character in Messiah ...


I think he escaped to The Scattering and lived serial lives,
being directly involved in, but never directing, the evolution
of the Face Dancers (in the same way Duncan was Leto's anchor)
and I think Frank was planning to bring him back in the end,
to complete Duncan (two sides of the same coin)






and I also think that something that obvious, metaphorical, subtle,
eloquent and artistic would never have crossed either of those fucktard's
little monkey-brains ...


Brian Pherbert: Marty & Daniel as literary metaphors for Frank & Bev ?
Well .... fuck me, I never thought anything like that ....

Spanky McDune: I thought about having a dwarf-toss in POD, y'know, like
them Aussies do, and Fremen standing around a bar with, like, a fountain
just throwing water all out into the air, man, and they're like, just
standing there, you know, drinking growlers of microbrewed spicebeer, and
then like, way off in the distance there's this music, and it kinda builds up
into a, whatcha callit? a crashendo, or something, and then BAM! you realize
it's like Rush, man, and Neil's just ripping around like, thirty, no, fifty
tom-toms, and like the heads of his drums are like made of skin, man, like
the skin of worms, man ... well, no that won't work, but there's
something in there about drum heads and skin, man, I know I
read that ... or maybe that was something you told me, BH ......

Brian Pherbert: Hmmm...? What? I wasn't listening to you ....

Freakzilla wrote:

Tycho wrote:CoD my least favourite.

Yeah, I arched a brow at that one too.

SandRider wrote:Bijaz is the most important character in Messiah ...

Don't mean that he's not as annoying as Tom Bombadil. Hated that guy too.

So where do you guys rate CoD?

I mean one of them has to come last.

I was only probably about 14 when I read it so no doubt much of it went over my head. But I mean, here's what I didn't like
1. the whole priesthood thing and the museum fremen and stuff was a bit lame. yeah they were SUPPOSED to be, but i was used to everything in the Dune universe kicking ass
2. Alia was annoying
3. that whole bit about Jacurutu, I couldn't follow what that was all about. It just confused me
4. Paul's 'comeback' was so... empty
5. There was nothing really EXCITING happening, until Leto's metamorphosis
6. Were there any new characters?

all the other books just seem to have more going for them, more that stood out as great. CoD just seemed to pad out the story until the God Emperor emerged

Tycho wrote:So where do you guys rate CoD?

#1

I mean one of them has to come last.

I was only probably about 14 when I read it so no doubt much of it went over my head. But I mean, here's what I didn't like
1. the whole priesthood thing and the museum fremen and stuff was a bit lame. yeah they were SUPPOSED to be, but i was used to everything in the Dune universe kicking ass
2. Alia was annoying
3. that whole bit about Jacurutu, I couldn't follow what that was all about. It just confused me
4. Paul's 'comeback' was so... empty
5. There was nothing really EXCITING happening, until Leto's metamorphosis
6. Were there any new characters?

all the other books just seem to have more going for them, more that stood out as great. CoD just seemed to pad out the story until the God Emperor emerged

wow



Alia is possessed by The Baron, the Ecological Transformation is accelerating and the worms are dying, The Preacher, Jessica is kidnapped by Hayt to train Farad'n as a BG, Leto fakes his own death after hypnotizing Ghanima, Gurney sends Leto on the Worm Trip, he forms a symbiosis with sandtrout, wrecks the transformation, kicks Alia's ass, topples a Guild frigate, proves to the Fremen that he's GOD thus uniting the Imperial and desert Fremen and his spice monopoly, marries the Corrinos into House Atreides and absorbs the Sardaukar.

Superdog wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.

If there was anything the rest of the Dune series is missing, it's more dwarves.

You SAID it! God bless the Little People! There's nothing I love more than Friday Night Midget Tossing on ABC!


Where to rank CoD?

Meh. I take each book on its own terms, like and dislike various aspects of all of them.