Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

A rather weird thought came to my mind the other day. Leto could not see Siona with his oracular vision, but he could see her footprints on the sand. I suppose this means that a prescient can still see the environment a shielded individual interacts with; also Edric's words in Messiah suggest the same (given that there is any connection between prescience invisibility of prescient people and those with the Siona gene):

"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been here... there... somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

Now, only people with the Siona gene are permitted free movement on Chapterhouse planet, so that no prescient could track its location. However, if prescience-shielded individuals still leave traces that can be seen, doesn't this render the precaution useless? Wouldn't a Navigator just need to look for places where weird things happen like food is cooked and then eaten all by itself ( ) etc.? Or does such a high concentration of humans with Siona gene somehow make the entire planet invisible? Maybe the "cloaking effect" can spread to the environment as well (just like a prescient person can also hide those who share their loyalties)?

Chapterhouse Planet was surrounded by a [moat] of no-ships, the entire planet was hidden.

Taraza swung her gaze around the details of her room. The Bene Gesserit power
was still here. Chapter House remained concealed behind a moat of no-ships, its
location unrecorded except in the minds of her own people. Invisibility.
~HoD

Cool, thanks I suppose a "moat of no-ships" means they completely surrounded the planet? Then why did the BG not permit Duncan off the no-ship? For some other reasons (he was too dangerous to walk around freely)? Or the "moat"could hide the planet but not its inhabitants?

MrFlibble wrote:Cool, thanks I suppose a "moat of no-ships" means they completely surrounded the planet?

Yes, or at least their no-fields did.

Then why did the BG not permit Duncan off the no-ship? For some other reasons (he was too dangerous to walk around freely)? Or the "moat"could hide the planet but not its inhabitants?

Just in case.

I find this part the more pertinent:

...its location unrecorded except in the minds of her own people. Invisibility.[/i]
~HoD

A prescient might be able to see the effects that the Bene Gesserit have, but in no way do their actions give away the location of Chapterhouse, all travel to and from is by no-ship. There is nothing for a prescient to lock on to - whereas Paul's actions were often tied directly to his palace, his known associates, orders bearing his name, etc. Nothing the BG did gave away their location - but of course the searchers knew that the BG existed.

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:Cool, thanks I suppose a "moat of no-ships" means they completely surrounded the planet?

Yes, or at least their no-fields did.

So surrounding something with no-ships would hide it just as if it were placed inside a no-ship? Meaning that a no-ship's field also "cloaked" some portion of its surroundings? Or is it that its surface blocks oracular vision like a wall?

Freakzilla wrote:

Then why did the BG not permit Duncan off the no-ship? For some other reasons (he was too dangerous to walk around freely)? Or the "moat"could hide the planet but not its inhabitants?

Just in case.

Hm, I think this brings back my question about Scytale's prescient shielding...

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:Cool, thanks I suppose a "moat of no-ships" means they completely surrounded the planet?

Yes, or at least their no-fields did.

So surrounding something with no-ships would hide it just as if it were placed inside a no-ship? Meaning that a no-ship's field also "cloaked" some portion of its surroundings? Or is it that its surface blocks oracular vision like a wall?

I imagined the no-ships in the moat were close enough that their no-fields overlapped, essentially creating a giant no-field around the planet.

Freakzilla wrote:

Then why did the BG not permit Duncan off the no-ship? For some other reasons (he was too dangerous to walk around freely)? Or the "moat"could hide the planet but not its inhabitants?

Just in case.

Hm, I think this brings back my question about Scytale's prescient shielding...

Only some of Duncan's cells had the Siona Gene, probably all of Scytale's had it.

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:Cool, thanks I suppose a "moat of no-ships" means they completely surrounded the planet?

Yes, or at least their no-fields did.

So surrounding something with no-ships would hide it just as if it were placed inside a no-ship? Meaning that a no-ship's field also "cloaked" some portion of its surroundings? Or is it that its surface blocks oracular vision like a wall?

I imagined the no-ships in the moat were close enough that their no-fields overlapped, essentially creating a giant no-field around the planet.

Wait, one more thing to clarify. Does "Chapter House" in the passage you quoted mean the planet or the BG compound on its surface? So was it a literal moat around the complex, or a metaphorical one around the planet?

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:Cool, thanks I suppose a "moat of no-ships" means they completely surrounded the planet?

Yes, or at least their no-fields did.

So surrounding something with no-ships would hide it just as if it were placed inside a no-ship? Meaning that a no-ship's field also "cloaked" some portion of its surroundings? Or is it that its surface blocks oracular vision like a wall?

I imagined the no-ships in the moat were close enough that their no-fields overlapped, essentially creating a giant no-field around the planet.

Wait, one more thing to clarify. Does "Chapter House" in the passage you quoted mean the planet or the BG compound on its surface? So was it a literal moat around the complex, or a metaphorical one around the planet?

The planet was "englobed" by no-ships.

Duncan was a chimera.

Biology an organism containing a mixture of genetically different tissues, formed by processes such as fusion of early embryos, grafting, or mutation : the sheeplike goat chimera.
• a DNA molecule with sequences derived from two or more different organisms, formed by laboratory manipulation.

I can't remember why, but yesterday it occurred to me that this emphasis on simply having a gene in a cell or not is kinda silly. I mean, it's not like it's a little amulet or transmitter the cell wears for protection around its waist on a belt or chain. If a gene isn't expressed in some way (in gross structure or metabolic function), it seems like there should be little difference between having it and not having it.

That make any sense? Or am I just slaphappy and fingerbabbling? (Didn't seem worth starting a new thread about...)

Chig, yes, I think you are right. It's what the gene does that's important, not the existence of the gene itself. Presumably the gene expresses itself in some way - giving people latent prescience, for example, as Freak has suggested.


I'd go further to say that the gene must have existed from conception, and not been created or formed by mutation afterwards. Hence the emergence of the Siona gene via a breeding program.

HBJ

Hunchback Jack wrote: I'd go further to say that the gene must have existed from conception, and not been created or formed by mutation afterwards. Hence the emergence of the Siona gene via a breeding program.

To expand on that (contradict it actually), the fact that it was done through a breeding program doesn't necessarily mean that it couldn't be engineered or added by the BT later - it just means that it had to be bred in to see what the gene would look like first.

What I mean is this: if you just tried to sequency your own gene to do what the Siona gene does you might be trying forever, you'd have no bloody idea where to start. Leto bred for a trait though, not a gene, so once that trait was expressed I would imagine that the BT could examine it and create there own version to splice into their Masters. Just like if you wanted to breed a person that had big ears, it might be easier to do it through breeding than to just try and engineer it (bad example, but you get the point I hope)>

SandChigger wrote:I can't remember why, but yesterday it occurred to me that this emphasis on simply having a gene in a cell or not is kinda silly. I mean, it's not like it's a little amulet or transmitter the cell wears for protection around its waist on a belt or chain. If a gene isn't expressed in some way (in gross structure or metabolic function), it seems like there should be little difference between having it and not having it.

That make any sense? Or am I just slaphappy and fingerbabbling? (Didn't seem worth starting a new thread about...)

Oh yes, I also thought about that, but was too lazy to check. It's that thing with "some of Duncan's cells have the gene, and some not" that seems especially dubious to me. But heck, it's science fiction!

I think Leto's skills were considerably more powerful than a Navigator's. Siona was not entirely invisible to Leto- she would "drop out" intermittently. Compare that to the Navigators of Heretics who still cannot perceive Siona's descendants.

I also don't think the no-ships generated a no-field for all of Chapterhouse. They appeared to be a secondary line of concealment (utter secrecy being the 1st; Siona genes the 3rd). Thus, Duncan would probably be exposed outside the no-ship even in his chimera state. Plus, he wasn't exactly trusted by the BG despite the exceptional liberties they granted (archives access, viewing Murbella's agony, etc.).

What, is this the new belabour-the-obvious thread?

You are MUCH too pleased with yourself at the moment.

I know!

isn't it great?

Freakzilla wrote: Chapterhouse Planet was surrounded by a [moat] of no-ships, the entire planet was hidden.

Taraza swung her gaze around the details of her room. The Bene Gesserit power
was still here. Chapter House remained concealed behind a moat of no-ships, its
location unrecorded except in the minds of her own people. Invisibility.
~HoD

:applauds for brevity and straight to the point-ness of the answer:

SPAMMMMM!@!!!!!!!

Freakzilla wrote:I imagined the no-ships in the moat were close enough that their no-fields overlapped, essentially creating a giant no-field around the planet.

Edric shielded the conspirators. Maybe the ships are their own oracles. Something like that. Capiche? I mean, the ships were shielded from prescience, and so...

and yes, maybe...

SandChigger wrote:What, is this the new belabour-the-obvious thread?

Hi, first post- thanks very much for the forum!

During a recent re-read of GEoD, the precise method by which the Siona Gene achieved the shielding of its bearer from prescient vision had me curious. So my apologies if this has been discussed here before and for resurrecting an old thread, but I thought this could be a good place to raise the issue.

By precise method, I mean the result of its genetic function:

Does it bestow upon the bearer a certain quality of mind, or distinct capacity of thought which lends them the ability to make decisions which are impossible for those otherwise capable of interpreting the potential "flows" of the future to predict? A sort of latent mental ability in other words, based on the actual behavior of the bearing organism.

Just thinking out loud....An earlier poster had pointed out the potential prescience in the bearer of the genes themselves, and perhaps this ability, even if not fully expressed would allow (or just pre-dispose) the bearer of the gene to make decisions which can't be anticipated by others with prescience. Not necessarily consciously of course.

Or would it be simply the physical existence of the gene itself which facilitates an interactive effect based on the time/space properties of the universe, sort of existing as an oddity within known time/space physics. Thereby causing the bearer to be nearly impossible to identify with prescience. Achieving the same effect as a no-field.

It is a semantic question, but one that still has me interested for whatever reason. Any thoughts appreciated!

Hunchback Jack wrote:Chig, yes, I think you are right. It's what the gene does that's important, not the existence of the gene itself. Presumably the gene expresses itself in some way - giving people latent prescience, for example, as Freak has suggested.

HBJ

This gets to the question I'm grappling with, and is presented much more concisely. How does the gene express itself such that the bearer is then shielded from prescient vision?

Jacob.B wrote:

Hunchback Jack wrote:Chig, yes, I think you are right. It's what the gene does that's important, not the existence of the gene itself. Presumably the gene expresses itself in some way - giving people latent prescience, for example, as Freak has suggested.

HBJ

This gets to the question I'm grappling with, and is presented much more concisely. How does the gene express itself such that the bearer is then shielded from prescient vision?

As I said, it gives people latent prescience. It is well established that prescients cannot see each other. For example Paul could not see guild navigators or Bijaz.

This is just my theory though, there is no text to back it up.