Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Was discussing Dune and Dune Messiah and couple questions popped up, I didn't have the answer to, and wanted to see what others thought.

1. Paul and Chani's first child, a boy, was named Leto, and he was killed by Harkonen's. Was he killed before or after Paul took the water of life? (I'm almost positive it was before). How much ability would this first child had compared to Ghanima and Leto II?

2. With the the first child being killed, wouldn't his second born son, be Leto III, technically?

3. Paul's sister Alia was awakened to prescience and reverened mother other memory in jessica's womb after she changed the water of life, Being preborn and exposed to possible abomination. Leto II and Chanima state in various passages about being preborn, but were they truly? I know their birth was accelerated by the diet chani was on to counter the poisen she had been given, but they were born normally. I know they were "awake" because of helping paul see the face dancer via little leto's eyes and killing him. Were they "awake" from the basic beginning because of Paul's as Kwisatz Haderach? Wre they truly Preborn's? wouldnt they have all the ability out of the womb that their father has, thus control of themselves and their memories, and not have to worry about abomination?


4. Last question is on the range of other memory/genetic memory of Leto and ghanima? its true that the bene gesserit reverened mothers only have access to the previous reverend mothers memories? Did Chani have access to or bring fremen memories to the table? Leto and ghanima would have from the get go, all the powers of their father, if even latent, and access to reverend mother other memory, Atreides genetic memory, and fremen genetic memory?

As to #4, no - the RM had access to all female ancestral memories, not just other RMs, the only thing they didn't access was male OM.

trang wrote:Was discussing Dune and Dune Messiah and couple questions popped up, I didn't have the answer to, and wanted to see what others thought.

1. Paul and Chani's first child, a boy, was named Leto, and he was killed by Harkonen's. Was he killed before or after Paul took the water of life? (I'm almost positive it was before).

After, Paul finds out as he and Gurney are preparing to nuke the Shield Wall. He finds out in the same message that Alia has been captured.

How much ability would this first child had compared to Ghanima and Leto II?

Since he was not pre-born, would would probably only had as much potential as Paul.

2. With the the first child being killed, wouldn't his second born son, be Leto III, technically?

From what I understand, Leto II was a royal title, not a name. He was the second ruler of House Atreides by that name. Not the 2nd Leto Atreides. If that makes sense.

3. Paul's sister Alia was awakened to prescience and reverened mother other memory in jessica's womb after she changed the water of life, Being preborn and exposed to possible abomination. Leto II and Chanima state in various passages about being preborn, but were they truly? I know their birth was accelerated by the diet chani was on to counter the poisen she had been given, but they were born normally. I know they were "awake" because of helping paul see the face dancer via little leto's eyes and killing him. Were they "awake" from the basic beginning because of Paul's as Kwisatz Haderach? Wre they truly Preborn's? wouldnt they have all the ability out of the womb that their father has, thus control of themselves and their memories, and not have to worry about abomination?

Yes they were preoborn due to Chani's spice saturated fremen fertility diet in combination with the Contraceptives Irulan was giving her. One big difference between the twins and Alia though is Leto and Ghanima were half Fremen and would have had a higher tollerance for spice. Also, the twins stayed away from the spice trance while Alia didn't.

4. Last question is on the range of other memory/genetic memory of Leto and ghanima? its true that the bene gesserit reverened mothers only have access to the previous reverend mothers memories?

No, they have female ancestral memory. If they Share with a RM, they have memories of the other RMs they Shared with.

Did Chani have access to or bring fremen memories to the table?

Yes, Leto and Ghanima had memories of all their Fremen ancestors through Chani.

Leto and ghanima would have from the get go, all the powers of their father, if even latent, and access to reverend mother other memory, Atreides genetic memory, and fremen genetic memory?

Yes, except the only RMs they would have in their OM would be ones they were related to plus the wild, Fremen RMs through Jessica's Sharing with RM Ramallo.

To #2; in Heretics of Dune one of the priests questions the High Priest on this. His response indicates that they believe that the firstborn Leto was translated immediately to heaven and, if memory serves, implies he has some sort of "Holy Spirit" role.

Just thought it was interesting and relevant.

That's the one. And the "Nameless Essence" was what I was trying to get at. Just couldn't remember.