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So what exactly happened to Caladan after the fall of Leto? There is a four year time span until Paul takes it back for Jessica/Gurney I am pretty sure Fenring was left in charge of it, but what of the people, the way of life, etc? I imagine the bulk of the fighting force was on Arrakis and was either killed or fled afterward. So do they go back to Caladan and work for Fenring? And are the people like "I used to farm Pundi rice for the Atreides, then I farmed Pundi rice for the Fenrings, and now I farm Pundi rice for the Atreides. All in all, nothing has changed. I still farm Pundi rice."?

I dont think there's much information about it. Not detailed anyway.
But it's not like it's very relevant.

I'm sure there's a trilogy of drivel from Combover in there somewhere, maybe a detailed story of what happened to that Leronica woman Leto had a fling with, or was that Vorian? Sorry, it's all turned into a pile of badly written mush in the back of my mind, I can't remember the details of the House and Legends books anymore.

Idahopotato wrote:So what exactly happened to Caladan after the fall of Leto? There is a four year time span until Paul takes it back for Jessica/Gurney I am pretty sure Fenring was left in charge of it, but what of the people, the way of life, etc?

You are correct:

COUNT HASIMIR FENRING (10,133-10,225)
A distaff cousin of House Corrino, he was a childhood companion of Shaddam IV.
(The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX.) All
accounts agree that Fenring was the closest friend Shaddam IV possessed. The
Imperial chores carried out by Count Fenring included that of Imperial Agent on
Arrakis during the Harkonnen regime there and later Siridar-Absentia of Caladan.
He joined Shaddam IV in retirement on Salusa Secundus.
~Dune, Appendix IV: The Almanak en-Ashraf (Selected Excerpts of the Noble Houses)

I believe Count Fenring was given Caladan to rule in the the Duke's absence when he moved to Arrakis, not when he was defeated.

I imagine the bulk of the fighting force was on Arrakis and was either killed or fled afterward. So do they go back to Caladan and work for Fenring?

I seriously doubt that, they'd have been killed lest they reveal the Emperor's hand in the Arrakis affair.

"They're using Sardaukar," Jessica said. "We must wait until the Sardaukar
have been withdrawn."
"They think us caught between the desert and the Sardaukar," Paul said.
"They intend that there be no Atreides survivors--total extermination. Do not
count on any of our people escaping."

And are the people like "I used to farm Pundi rice for the Atreides, then I farmed Pundi rice for the Fenrings, and now I farm Pundi rice for the Atreides. All in all, nothing has changed. I still farm Pundi rice."?

...or made wine. I think it was always for the Atreides though, Fenring was just holding Caladan for them.

Some fighting men escaped with Gurney and joined in smuggling until they had enough money to get off Arrakis for good.

Why would Fenring be holding Caladan for the Atreides when they were believed to have been exterminated? Or are there still distant cousins that might have birth rights to rule the Duke's fief?

Please don't say things like that Chanilover. We really don't need to be giving the hacks any more ideas for crap to publish. The Maker knows the two of them are completely devoid of anything that can even resemble an original thought.

I always thought it was an exchange? As Piter complimented the Baron; to *make* Duke Leto exchange Caladan for Dune, and as the Atreides were discussing "...you couldn't turn down the greatest source of wealth in the Imperium...". There was also a change of the type of holding it was. The Atreides replaced the Harkonnens, who held the fief under the Emperor, in "fief-complete", i.e., Arrakis was theirs, unlike the suzerainty of the Harkonnens; an "apparent triumph" as mentioned in the text. I think because of this, Caladan technically became the Emperor's, who put Fenring over it.

Of course since both the Corrinos and the Harkonnens intended to wipe out the Atreides, the fief was meant to revert to the Emperor, which it duly did and he put the Harkonnens over it again.

Raveem.

So you think that the Harkonnens were responsible for managing the fief for 60 years prior to the Atreides? When they screwed it up, the Atreides were awarded a switch? I am not so sure that is how it worked, but of course I don't have another theory to replace it. I always figured that they kept Caladan, just as the Harkonnens kept Geidi Prime, but that Leto was a man of honour and thus chose to administer it from Arakis. Of course he most likely didn't have much of a choice since there was a stringent quota that went along with the CHAOM directorship.

The Atreides weren't strong enough to occupy both fifes and allthough we know the emperor helped eliminate him he could not make it obvious by taking over Caladan. Leto had to throw everything he had into being successful on Arrakis. Once the Duke was dead it would be very convenient to have the Count on Caladan.

All fifes are property of the empire, one of the emperor's main powers is awarding them to whom he sees fit.

I see. We have to assume that the emperor couldn't just remove someone from their fief either, else he would risk a unified Landsraad, out of fear that it could happen to them. I guess the best way to do that would be to give a duke the Arakis fief and let rival houses do what they will (with the loan of disguised sardukar).

I can't help but assume that there must have been some Atreides cousins left somewhere. I mean they have been around for quite a long time. Or are we to believe that each of the Atreides rulers had one and only one son to pass the realm to?

Only one NAMED heir.

Even though House Atreides was an ancient one, it wasn't one of the "big, rich Houses."

Like I said, Duke Leto needed all his resources just to try to hang on to Arrakis.

True. I remember Leto saying something about not being wealthy when he explains CHOAM to Paul (and the reader). I just find it odd that they would exchange planets just like that. I am sure he needed every swinging dick he could trust in Arrakis as his only hope of avoiding the "trap". But there is an entire populace once governed under the Atreides banner that changes allegiance to whatever Fenring flew over the capitol. It would be like the president grabbing up my governor, along with the national guard, police force, and all of his advisers, taking them to another state and then dropping someone from his cabinet as the new governor. I guess it isn't that far fetched though. Leadership comes and goes, while people go about their everyday life. I am just thinking out loud here.

Idahopotato wrote:True. I remember Leto saying something about not being wealthy when he explains CHOAM to Paul (and the reader). I just find it odd that they would exchange planets just like that. I am sure he needed every swinging dick he could trust in Arrakis as his only hope of avoiding the "trap". But there is an entire populace once governed under the Atreides banner that changes allegiance to whatever Fenring flew over the capitol. It would be like the president grabbing up my governor, along with the national guard, police force, and all of his advisers, taking them to another state and then dropping someone from his cabinet as the new governor. I guess it isn't that far fetched though. Leadership comes and goes, while people go about their everyday life. I am just thinking out loud here.

It's more like the governor becomes a senator and you get a temporary governor appointed by the president.

its a Quai-fuedal system of governance, planets are land rited to families major and minor by the crown (the emperor in this case). The Landsraad is a twist to the system, a check and balance to keep the crown above board. Major/Minor houses united in power (atomics being the motivating factor I assume) against the ruling family. The CHOAM being another factor... the business engine to keep all enterprises generating income for the stake holders.

I believe its as simple as that, Caladan is a property and a revenue generating source. Irregardless of the ruling body, there had to be maintained a single ruler/representative.

The one option for a ruling Major/Minor House that lifts them above the local population tie is that of a renegade House. If a House decides to go that route they move off to the far reaches of the empire and stake claim to some planet(s) that are out of empire control, abliet hunted. A portion of the ruling House may very well be tied in deep to the population but I seriously doubt the entire poplulace would pull out and move leaving the place barren.

Your example of our system changing governer/representatives is pretty spot on, a portion, most the time not event the majority due to lethargic concern or participation, cares for the ruling person and the change just happens with little effect on the populace. It appears the same in the case with Leto.

A few quirks to the system, beyond who ruled Caladan during Leto's move to Arrakis and subsequent fall, are the Bene Tleileix, the Planet Companies of Richese and IX. Im not sure how they figured into the mix, but they appeared to be outside the Landsraad and Ruling family? Maybe CHOAM run?

Interesting conversation:)

trang wrote:A few quirks to the system, beyond who ruled Caladan during Leto's move to Arrakis and subsequent fall, are the Bene Tleileix, the Planet Companies of Richese and IX. Im not sure how they figured into the mix, but they appeared to be outside the Landsraad and Ruling family? Maybe CHOAM run?

They are on the fringes of the empire and escaped the more extreme effects of the Great Revolt in favor of the goods and services they provide.

I am going out on a Limb here- but I am fairly certain the Atreides owned more than one planet.... a bunch of Rice Farmers on one planet couldn't do much to worry a empire.... what, how magical was Leto's tongue in debates that would convince a universe full of houses to follow the equivalent of.... puny cambodia to overthrow the imperial house (america)?

The more obvious answer to this is- if you administered Arrakis- it was on the basis of showing competency to get the maximum benefit- the Harks showed cunning and industrial strength- would make good administrators. Leto was sent for a similar reason- and once there- would have to provide sufficient leverage during his service that he wouldn't do something 'Paulish' like taking over Dune and nuking the rival houses and telling the spacing guild to shove it. One of the best ways to do this is to have them TURN OVER IN TRUST their mini-empire to the imperial throne. As vassals, they couldn't refuse, but as property owning dukes, they could still exploit the full wealth and benefits of their lands..... any micromanaging would be handled while they were away by the best- in the lines and best tradition of the house that is away governing arrakis.

This sounds very complex- and it is- but we've had equivalents happen throughout history.... you don't want to put a member of the imperial household in charge of Dune- as they WILL take over eventually and have a good claim to the throne- and many potential allies.... you need someone highly competent, and very easy to manipulate.

Dune had a very, very small area in terms of Air Cavalry and Leg Infantry to actually cover- even the rice patty troops could be expected to handle this if it was a swap out- it wasn't.... they went in very limited- likely because Fenring was using the bulk of them for needs in the Atreides empire..... they still had enemies, they still had defensive concerns, policing concerns. Why would Fenring use his own forces, or use the Emperor's Forces for that? That's just a waste of men and resources to use on something that was self sustaining.


I think atreided law pretty much continued after Paul disappeared into the desert on Caladan. Why would Fenring change it? No need for mass slaughter- just point out the troops still alive, though loyal to Leto- were also loyal to the emperor- who Fenring was a representative of- their culture and property would not disappear, and since he already had considerable time governing the planet- no major shake-ups would happen..... status quo would be maintained- any sudden hostilities on the part of the locals would be dealt with- but in honestly- what would be gained- for who are you fighting for- your former house is dead, it was Kanly, deeply sorry for your lost, but we're not the bad guys here. Doubt all the generals would buy it- and sure some were killed off. Doubt a single sardukar stepped foot on Arrakis until the Mentats were certain they already secured their safety from a surprise nuclear attack, and insured victory.

That's the think about royal dynasties- you kill off the heirs- and already have someone else in-charge of them- not much is going to happen. Everyone has families, just go with the status quo.... so much easier for everyone.

Now- the big question is- what on earth happened to Caladan once Paul announced his return? Paul only controlled Dune- you have a population on Caladan that is going to be very, very interested in him- and a lot of imperial and allied-house troops in close proximity to Caladan. We know Caladan mostly survives intact- HOW? That would of been my first concern as Emperor was making sure the most obvious source of external aid for Paul would be denied or neutralized ASAP! God knows what would happen if Dune and Caladan linked up.... the onslaught of well trained veterans of Leto's old regime knowledgeable in air, sea, and mechanized warfare mixed with the zealotry of the Fremen would be unstoppable. I question who well the two forces would get along culturally, but both being deeply loyal to Paul, and on the same side makes me think a certain awkward brotherhood would arise..... you can't tell me Paul would deny himself Caladan's assets, or the Fremen would be too stupid to understand the importance of using Caladan's Naval or Airforce capacity- I don't recall any Fremen Sailors- but if your jihading the universe, might come into use.... any boy in the desert could make that connection that the Fremen were no good when it came to marine operations, and Caladan would be needed.

Hence why I am surprised Caladan wasn't just outright nuked when Paul took over Dune. Yes, the spice must flow- but it doesn't require Caladan to exist for Paul to have his little fief and monopoly on Dune. Some good quarantine could of kept Paul on Dune permanently, until his 'little' dynasty corrupted or collapsed. Seems simple enough for a Mentat to figure out to me.

Kalam farigh. Empty prattle.

SandChigger wrote:Kalam farigh. Empty prattle.

Bi-lal kaifa.