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Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 24 Oct 2009 11:27
by halcyo
I had an interesting thought recently while re-watching the 1984 Dune. Many people cite the ridiculously over-exaggerated ending as one of the worst parts of the film. All of a sudden Paul IS the hand of god and magically makes it rain, and so apparently the Kwisatz Haderach is the "rain maker"
....
Well my thought was this: If Lynch had hoped to continue on with film adaptions of the series, is it possible that he had the same intentions as Frank had with the character of Paul? What I mean is, would his Dune Messiah adaption have exposed these events as a 'hoax' to bolster his religious power base?!
It was very much Frank's goal to build the reader's love for Paul as a messiah, and then to tear it down in short order over the next few books.... Perhaps Lynch was going to do the same thing cinematically?
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 24 Oct 2009 12:50
by DuneFishUK
Lynch's Dune is full of great visual shorthand - even weirding modules are pretty elegant if you think about them.
The rain scene could be one too - but to quote FH himself on this one: "Paul was a man playing god, not a god who could make it rain." Rather than change details of the story (which is forgiveable in any book-to-film adaptation) it changes the concept of the story.
Details aside Lynch was reasonably faithful - I think his Dune Messiah would have been weird.. but would have largely followed the original.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 24 Oct 2009 14:31
by Redstar
I believe the story goes that Lynch and others felt the sequels to Dune were unfilmable, so they worked to tidy up a more final ending. While making it rain does in fact contradict the book, anyone that pays attention during the movie should realize that at no time in the film does Paul making it rain contradict what they've set up. Different canon.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 24 Oct 2009 15:12
by DuneFishUK
Redstar wrote:I believe the story goes that Lynch and others felt the sequels to Dune were unfilmable, so they worked to tidy up a more final ending. While making it rain does in fact contradict the book, anyone that pays attention during the movie should realize that at no time in the film does Paul making it rain contradict what they've set up. Different canon.
But Lynch did began scripting Dune 2 before the first one was finished.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 24 Oct 2009 15:21
by inhuien
The rain scene was added in the final, draft 7, revision of the script. I wonder how much Dino De Laurentiis and his compulsion for a 2 hour film and a "Ta-Da" ending had to do with it's addition.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 24 Oct 2009 16:54
by Redstar
Ah. Well towards the end I imagine they realized a sequel might not actually happen, so they tacked on the revised ending to make it more stand-alone.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 24 Oct 2009 17:51
by Freakzilla
Slowly, Irulan relaxed. There was no point in surrendering to fear, no point
in retreat, she had decided.
"You've allowed the weather to fall into a very primitive pattern," she
said, rubbing her arms through the robe. "It was dry and there was a sandstorm
today. Are you never going to let it rain here?"
"You didn't come here to talk about the weather," Paul said.
~Dune Messah
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 24 Oct 2009 22:43
by trang
I think the interpretation was to show abilities of Paul's beyond Prescience.
"His name is a killing word"
"Usul no longer needs the weirding Module"
Again this is lynch's Paul, but I understood where he was going with it.
I always wondered (hindsight) if it would have worked out better if there had been another script writer who was more accurate in the interpretation from book to script, but then lynch do the Visuals and so forth.
I think Lynch really had the scale and scope of the book to movie correct, its majestic nature, and a lot of other things. Could have been ten times better, will never know I guess.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 26 Oct 2009 09:15
by Apjak
I still want to point out that Lynch filmed the correct ending. I don't know the politics behind what actually made it to screen.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 26 Oct 2009 13:51
by DuneFishUK
Apjak wrote:I still want to point out that Lynch filmed the correct ending. I don't know the politics behind what actually made it to screen.
The ending is a bit rubbish if you don't have all the build-up with the epigraphs and the terrible purpose etc. Where as
"For he IS the Kwisatz Haderach!" <Thunder, lightning, music> cut-to-black. Does hit the spot to a degree.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 28 Oct 2009 15:54
by Drunken Idaho
Freakzilla wrote:Slowly, Irulan relaxed. There was no point in surrendering to fear, no point
in retreat, she had decided.
"You've allowed the weather to fall into a very primitive pattern," she
said, rubbing her arms through the robe. "It was dry and there was a sandstorm
today. Are you never going to let it rain here?"
"You didn't come here to talk about the weather," Paul said.
~Dune Messah
Surely she's talking about Weather Management.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 28 Oct 2009 18:00
by Freakzilla
Drunken Idaho wrote:Freakzilla wrote:Slowly, Irulan relaxed. There was no point in surrendering to fear, no point
in retreat, she had decided.
"You've allowed the weather to fall into a very primitive pattern," she
said, rubbing her arms through the robe. "It was dry and there was a sandstorm
today. Are you never going to let it rain here?"
"You didn't come here to talk about the weather," Paul said.
~Dune Messah
Surely she's talking about Weather Management.
Did Lynch know that?
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 28 Oct 2009 21:06
by lotek
Freakzilla wrote:Slowly, Irulan relaxed. There was no point in surrendering to fear, no point
in retreat, she had decided.
"You've allowed the weather to fall into a very primitive pattern," she
said, rubbing her arms through the robe. "It was dry and there was a sandstorm
today. Are you never going to let it rain here?"
"You didn't come here to talk about the weather," Paul said.
~Dune Messah
I was thinking weather control there, but I'm not too sure if they had the technology at that quote's time, let alone after Paul taking the Imperium.
Leto II definitely had it, and the Guild prevented the use of satellites on Arrakis so Paul becoming more powerful than Navigators could bypass that order and use weather control
Could that whole scene be just a metaphor of the powers of the KH?
It's not like Lynch never used that technique before
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 28 Oct 2009 22:28
by SandChigger
No, the Fremen prevented the use of weather satellites by paying off the Guild.
"We've all the evidence in our hands," he said. "Right here in this tent—the tent itself, this pack and its contents, these stillsuits. We know the Guild wants a prohibitive price for weather satellites. We know that—"
"What've weather satellites to do with it?" she asked. "They couldn't possibly..." She broke off.
Paul sensed the hyperalertness of his mind reading her reactions, computing on minutiae. "You see it now," he said. "Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection."
"You're suggesting the Guild itself controls this planet?"
She was so slow.
"No!" he said. "The Fremen! They're paying the Guild for privacy, paying in a coin that's freely available to anyone with desert power—spice. This is more than a second-approximation answer; it's the straight-line computation. Depend on it."
(I love it when he disses her:
She was so slow. "Awww, Mom ... you're like a ... pretard or something!"
)
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 28 Oct 2009 22:38
by lotek
SandChigger wrote:No, the Fremen prevented the use of weather satellites by paying off the Guild.
Yeah my mistake that's what I meant but it is late here and my mind was faster than my keyboard. My question was as Fremen prevented the use of any satellites, what if that final scene in Dune was just a cinematic shortcut to the time where those satellites were in place? Installing them from space would be a formality and with the size of industry in the Duniverse having the necessary numbers would be a matter of days. I doubt Lynch would say that but I do.
"We've all the evidence in our hands," he said. "Right here in this tent—the tent itself, this pack and its contents, these stillsuits. We know the Guild wants a prohibitive price for weather satellites. We know that—"
"What've weather satellites to do with it?" she asked. "They couldn't possibly..." She broke off.
Paul sensed the hyperalertness of his mind reading her reactions, computing on minutiae. "You see it now," he said. "Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection."
"You're suggesting the Guild itself controls this planet?"
She was so slow.
"No!" he said. "The Fremen! They're paying the Guild for privacy, paying in a coin that's freely available to anyone with desert power—spice. This is more than a second-approximation answer; it's the straight-line computation. Depend on it."
(I love it when he disses her:
She was so slow. "Awww, Mom ... you're like a ... pretard or something!"
)
hey even messiahs have the right to be obnoxious adolescents
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 09:04
by Freakzilla
lotek wrote:... what if that final scene in Dune was just a cinematic shortcut to the time where those satellites were in place?
That's what I'd like to think. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Lynch had read DM and was prepared to do a sequel.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 09:21
by lotek
Freakzilla wrote:lotek wrote:... what if that final scene in Dune was just a cinematic shortcut to the time where those satellites were in place?
That's what I'd like to think. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Lynch had read DM and was prepared to do a sequel.
thing is it's still Lynch and after watching Twin Peaks or Blue Velvet, no way I can truly believe the guy would go for such a down to earth explanation
I seem also to have read something about a DM sequel but it could have been in this post
the kja tarot has been muddling my mind's water again
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 09:26
by Freakzilla
lotek wrote:Freakzilla wrote:lotek wrote:... what if that final scene in Dune was just a cinematic shortcut to the time where those satellites were in place?
That's what I'd like to think. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Lynch had read DM and was prepared to do a sequel.
thing is it's still Lynch and after watching Twin Peaks or Blue Velvet, no way I can truly believe the guy would go for such a down to earth explanation
Maybe he was between LSD trips when he did Dune?
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 10:30
by Seraphan
Or he didnt care much. He was more interested in the deal he made with Dino DeLorentis to finance one of his films and give him complete control over the project. This project was Blue Velvet.
Added:
From Wiki:
Dune Messiah: Lynch was in the process of writing the sequel to film Dune (which was partially adapted from the book), but the box office failure of the first film killed the project. From the Inner Views Lynch interview, "...I was really getting into Dune II. I wrote about half the script, maybe more, and I was really getting excited about it. It was much tighter, a better story." From a Prevue article from 1984: "Lynch has written two sequel screenplays to Dune – Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, based on Herbert's succeeding novels – which currently await the author's approval. Back-to-back lensing is expected if the first film is a success. Although Kyle MacLachlan will portray Paul Atreides in the three Dune spectacles, Lynch promises a different cast each time."
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 10:43
by Freakzilla
Even though I didn't like his Dune effort, I'd like to see what he would have done with the next two.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 10:57
by nampigai
lotek wrote:Freakzilla wrote:lotek wrote:... what if that final scene in Dune was just a cinematic shortcut to the time where those satellites were in place?
That's what I'd like to think. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Lynch had read DM and was prepared to do a sequel.
thing is it's still Lynch and after watching Twin Peaks or Blue Velvet, no way I can truly believe the guy would go for such a down to earth explanation
I seem also to have read something about a DM sequel but it could have been in this post
the kja tarot has been muddling my mind's water again
did you ever see Inland Empire? I must say, I've seen it once and it felt like my brain would melt down.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 12:08
by lotek
no I didn't see inland empire, I was quite a fan of lynch but even if I like to be challenged when watching a movie(or reading a book), the challenge with lynch lies more in accepting the fact there might be no answer even if he disclosed his true intentions(if himself knows them)
which is were I understand talks of melting brains
so after a while I kind of forgot him and his movies...
(but Blue Velvet and even Fire Walk With Me I did like)
I liked his Dune for the costumes and settings, his vision of what the characters looked like fit quite well the picture I had in mind
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 13:16
by Seraphan
I'm a Lynch fan myself, especially about Twin Peaks.
You're right about accepting that there are no answers because that's how Lynch is.
Many scenes are more about the visual effect it has rather than actual meaning.
Mulholland Drive is a great example of that.
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 13:45
by lotek
Seraphan wrote:I'm a Lynch fan myself, especially about Twin Peaks.
You're right about accepting that there are no answers because that's how Lynch is.
Many scenes are more about the visual effect it has rather than actual meaning.
Mulholland Drive is a great example of that.
yup definitely
shame he didn't exploit that more in Dune, it would have fitted perfectly with all the unsaid of Frank's prose to have a visual equivalent of "here are the elements make up your own goddamn' mind"
Re: Lynch's True Intentions?
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 14:22
by nampigai
lotek wrote:no I didn't see inland empire, I was quite a fan of lynch but even if I like to be challenged when watching a movie(or reading a book), the challenge with lynch lies more in accepting the fact there might be no answer even if he disclosed his true intentions(if himself knows them)
which is were I understand talks of melting brains
so after a while I kind of forgot him and his movies...
(but Blue Velvet and even Fire Walk With Me I did like)
I liked his Dune for the costumes and settings, his vision of what the characters looked like fit quite well the picture I had in mind
I love Lynch, however there are just some of his movies that will, well melt my brain, glad to know I'm not the only one. I can't help but thinking that Lynch is deliberately fucking with peoples minds, and that there's no "answers" to his movies.
Fire Walk With Me and Twin Peaks are awesome, I still watch them when ever my wife is working nightshifts. It's been ages since I've seen Blue Velvet and Mulholland Road, perhaps I need to go seach my dvd's