Omphalos wrote:I always thought it was either the worms or the spice (and a lack of "weather" satellites), but that idea is pretty interesting too.
I just thought it was because it was such a huge nexus point that their limited prescience could not see past it.
I also think that the fact of the observer affecting/changing the observed was mentioned (more quantum physics).
They saw enough to realize that this situation could have huge consequences for them, so they were afraid to look too deeply and risk changing the outcome badly.
How simple things were when our messiah was only a dream...
loremaster wrote:maybe the normacle really DID exist and thats why leto couldnt see her.
BLASPHEMY! BURN HIM LIKE A HISTORIAN!!!
I'm sure that's their reasoning. Or rationalization of the untenable.
Unfortunately, Leto says that he has lived her. That means she was one of his ancestors.
I forget right off whether her children were born before or after her deification, but it doesn't matter. One of her children was also necessarily his ancestor and presumably they would have remembered her death. Or her turning into a giant "Ooh, I can see my backside clear across the universe! Dayum, gotta smooth out that cellulite!" Brain from Planet Atrocious and going poof! in a spice-gas pod.
Untenable wank. Straight from the febrile imagination of the Great Wanker...I mean, Hiker.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
Dumbshits. Its even worse when they try to contend that the use of the term "oracle" meant Norma specifically, not just a term for anyone who uses prescience to see the future.
loremaster wrote:maybe the normacle really DID exist and thats why leto couldnt see her.
BLASPHEMY! BURN HIM LIKE A HISTORIAN!!!
I'm sure that's their reasoning. Or rationalization of the untenable.
Unfortunately, Leto says that he has lived her. That means she was one of his ancestors.
I forget right off whether her children were born before or after her deification, but it doesn't matter. One of her children was also necessarily his ancestor and presumably they would have remembered her death. Or her turning into a giant "Ooh, I can see my backside clear across the universe! Dayum, gotta smooth out that cellulite!" Brain from Planet Atrocious and going poof! in a spice-gas pod.
Untenable wank. Straight from the febrile imagination of the Great Wanker...I mean, Hiker.
Her children would have been born after she rebuilt herself into someone "pretty" but before she could see the backside of the universe. Even though Aurelius was dead by then, I doubt he would have wanted to be around her once she started living in a tank. Wouldn't have been good for the marriage.
DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie
loremaster wrote:One other thing i always have difficulty with is Why leto was invisible in DM? Paul saw only a daughter. So either leto became prescient in the womb (even if its OM, via backwards precience) OR must have been protected somehow. Is a latent prescient visible to prescience?
Leto was a natural prescient from conception, like Paul.
Freak seems to think Siona was, and Bijaz probably was. I cant think of anywhere a prescient "dissapeared" after being seen for a time.
Paul examined his vision memory: no dwarf, but the little man's words fitted
the occasion.
...
This dwarf does possess the power of prescience, Paul thought. Bijaz shared
the terrifying oracle. Did he share the oracle's fate, as well? How potent was
the dwarf's power? Did he have the little prescience of those who dabbled in the
Dune Tarot? Or was it something greater? How much had he seen?
Or does a "potential" prescient become totally immune to prescience all along?
I don't think there are potential prescients, you've either got it or you don't.
If leto was prescient in the womb, and paul saw nothing at all... maybe the normacle really DID exist and thats why leto couldnt see her.
And his Golden Path was just a vision inside her vision... BLASPHEMY!
loremaster wrote:One other thing i always have difficulty with is Why leto was invisible in DM? Paul saw only a daughter.
They should've used a bloody ultrasound if you ask me.
After all, they already had sound-weapons.
Just think how many things could've changed in the Duniverse with a simple gender check- Paul instead of a daughter, God Leto in addition to Ghani and all the things these two have done.
It's a plot device like bottomless pits in Star Wars.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
Hah, well didnt everyone else know she was expecting 2? chani certainly did, she says at one point "why does he keep referring to a single baby, surely he knew she carried twins"
or similar.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
FH in DM wrote: She pressed against him, lips on his neck. The pressure agitated the life in her womb. She felt it stir.
Paul felt it, too. He put a hand on her abdomen, said: "Ahh, little ruler of the universe, wait your time. This moment is mine."
She wondered then why he always spoke of the life within her as singular. Hadn't the medics told him? She searched back in her own memory, curious that the subject had never arisen between them. Surely, he must know she carried twins. She hesitated on the point of raising this question. He must know. He knew everything. He knew all the things that were herself. His hands, his mouth—all of him knew her.
Heh, heh, heh. He knew her.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
Yea, so it was half a joke, here we see a direct quote about medics checking her pregnancy, and it's not like the BG only discovered Paul when he was born and the doctor said "congrats, you have a lovely new boy", but still, this whole baby gender issue seems like a big plot device to me.
It was ok with Paul, Jessica refusing the BG and all and they had nothing to really do about it, but Paul not addressing the issue of twins?
FH just loves plots that revolve on the gender and number of babies.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
Yea, so it was half a joke, here we see a direct quote about medics checking her pregnancy, and it's not like the BG only discovered Paul when he was born and the doctor said "congrats, you have a lovely new boy", but still, this whole baby gender issue seems like a big plot device to me.
It was ok with Paul, Jessica refusing the BG and all and they had nothing to really do about it, but Paul not addressing the issue of twins?
FH just loves plots that revolve on the gender and number of babies.
paul cant see leto for the same reason he never saw fenring ... only leto isnt a failed kh...him being preborn made him something more
Well, can't see in the vision is one thing, but why didn't he talk about twins even though, as Chaney's though bubble shows, the medics have obviously told him about it?
I really need to reread DM though, I haven't read it in years and it shows.
Also, I think we've lost sight of this thread's topic completely.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
orald wrote:Well, can't see in the vision is one thing, but why didn't he talk about twins even though, as Chaney's though bubble shows, the medics have obviously told him about it?
I really need to reread DM though, I haven't read it in years and it shows.
Also, I think we've lost sight of this thread's topic completely.
She wondered then why he always spoke of the life within her as singular. Hadn't the medics told him? She searched back in her own memory, curious that the subject had never arisen between them. Surely, he must know she carried twins. She hesitated on the point of raising this question. He must know. He knew everything.
It could be, but Chaney seems very surprised if it's so. It's very unusual for him not have heard anything as basic as this about her pregnancy.
Considering how parents swarm over doctors for every morsal of info about the course of the pregnancy, this looks doublly strange.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
She wondered then why he always spoke of the life within her as singular. Hadn't the medics told him? She searched back in her own memory, curious that the subject had never arisen between them. Surely, he must know she carried twins. She hesitated on the point of raising this question. He must know. He knew everything.
It could be, but Chaney seems very surprised if it's so. It's very unusual for him not have heard anything as basic as this about her pregnancy.
Considering how parents swarm over doctors for every morsal of info about the course of the pregnancy, this looks doublly strange.
Hmmmm...could it be the result of that pre-born thing?
Well sure he can't "see" in the vision, that we all have to agree about, it's specifically said so in DM.
Maybe it's his over-relience on prescience? Maybe he's too absorbed in his vison to notice when everything goes awry? I really have to read DM again, maybe after I finish Dosadi.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
She wondered then why he always spoke of the life within her as singular. Hadn't the medics told him? She searched back in her own memory, curious that the subject had never arisen between them. Surely, he must know she carried twins. She hesitated on the point of raising this question. He must know. He knew everything.
It could be, but Chaney seems very surprised if it's so. It's very unusual for him not have heard anything as basic as this about her pregnancy.
Considering how parents swarm over doctors for every morsal of info about the course of the pregnancy, this looks doublly strange.
Hmmmm...could it be the result of that pre-born thing?
no..cause ghanima is preborn and he can see her...its cause leto has presience ...or will anyway .. its the same way edric can hide the scheme in dune messiah .. oracle cant see oracle...or something like that
Which ability was important enough to warrant 10,000 years of breeding?
SandChigger wrote:Um...more like 4,000 years of breeding.
(FH seems to use "generation" to refer to about 45 years [e.g., the Butlerian Jihad lasted 93 years and is described as "two generations"], probably due to the longer lifespans resulting from spice use. The breeding program was in operation for 90 generations.)
I'm not so sure about that estimate...
Shaddam IV was the 81st Padishaw Emperor of the Corrino line.
Thats 81 generations over 10,000 years.
Maybe some of them ruled for longer, and a generation maybe got passed over, but still, it averages out to a bit more.
How simple things were when our messiah was only a dream...
Only if you think the Corrinos ruled the empire for the entire 10.000 years, which isn't likely. He's the 81st of the Corrino line, but it doesn't say which family (or families) ruled prior to the Corrinos, there could have been several.
Last edited by Mandy on 08 Mar 2008 15:09, edited 1 time in total.
Mandy wrote:Only if you think the Corrino's ruled the empire for the entire 10.000 years, which isn't likely. He's the 81st of the Corrino line, but it doesn't say which family (or families) ruled prior to the Corrinos, there could have been several.
The Battle of Corrin, which led to the Corrino ascension, was in 88 B.G., so...
How many years was it since 88 B.G.? I never paid a lot of attention to the dates in the books. I don't even know what B.G. stands for.. did they start counting the years over after the Butlerian Jihad?
err.. lol B.G. means Before Guild.
Holy cow.. I guess I just never really thought about how much time passed during the books. I just had a look at the Dune wikia timeline. I think it's kinda unlikely that one family would rule for that long.. but it's fiction so *shrug*.
I never paid a lot of attention to the dates in the books. I don't even know what B.G. stands for.. did they start counting the years over after the Butlerian Jihad?
err.. lol B.G. means Before Guild.
Holy cow.. I guess I just never really thought about how much time passed during the books. I just had a look at the Dune wikia timeline. I think it's kinda unlikely that one family would rule for that long.. but it's fiction so *shrug*.
The calander begins at the time the Guild monopoly began, BG = Before Guild, AG = After Guild.
I got the impression the Corrinos ruled the whole time. The Landsraad had met continuously for 2000 years before that so there were obviously other ruling families before that.
Yeah.. I was just reading some stuff at that Dune wikia and according to their timeline House Corrino has been ruling the whole time. Seems like a pretty decent wiki, except it's has prequel information mixed in with the originals.
The Corrino dynasty tells you absolutely nothing about how many standard years a "generation" is(a generation has no accurate time meaning anyway), since being the Emperors they recieve just about the best medical care and could easily rule 100 years each before being succeeded.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
Or less than one year if unpopular and they forgot to turn on the snoopers before eating.
As already pointed out, the reign length has nothing to with generations. The Japanese have a list of 125 emperors since 660 BC. (The first twenty or so, maybe, are fictional/legendary.) They didn't all reign 20-some years and there's no real correlation between that number and the length of a generation. (Which has grown longer over the period of time in question.)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
