Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Well here's a bit of an issue... if Earth isn't destroyed in the Jihad, why is it entirely forgotten by the time of Dune?

moreh_yeladim wrote:Well here's a bit of an issue... if Earth isn't destroyed in the Jihad, why is it entirely forgotten by the time of Dune?

Was it? Paul gave Stilgar history texts about Hitler and Ghengis Khan.

"Stilgar," Paul said, "you urgently need a sense of balance which can come
only from an understanding of long-term effects. What little information we have
about the old times, the pittance of data which the Butlerians left us, Korba
has brought it for you. Start with the Genghis Khan."
"Ghengis . . . Khan? Was he of the Sardaukar, m'Lord?"
"Oh, long before that. He killed . . . perhaps four million."
"He must've had formidable weaponry to kill that many, Sire. Lasbeams,
perhaps, or . . ."
"He didn't kill them himself, Stil. He killed the way I kill, by sending out
his legions. There's another emperor I want you to note in passing -- a Hitler.
He killed more than six million. Pretty good for those days."
"Killed . . . by his legions?" Stilgar asked.
"Yes."
"Not very impressive statistics, m'Lord."
~Dune Messiah

The last mention of Earth chronologically is as the location of the C.E.T. and there are over 10,000 years between then and the time of Dune.

Plenty of time to destroy it if necessary. But there's no reason at all to think it was attacked as indicated during the Jihad.

Even this quote

This morning I was born in a yurt at the edge of a horse-plain in a land of a planet which no longer exists. Tomorrow I will be born someone else in another place. I have not yet chosen. This morning, though—ahhh, this life! When my eyes had learned to focus, I looked out at sunshine on trampled grass and I saw vigorous people going about the sweet activities of their lives. Where... oh where has all of that vigor gone?
—The Stolen Journals

need not refer to Earth (although I think it does): in twenty thousand years, people of Mongolian descent could have reestablished a version of the lifestyle of their distant ancestors on a new planet ... some sort of "Back to our Mongolian Nature!" movement.

Again, I'm not saying that's what this passage is about, but it's possible.

Earth is no longer a major player even by the time of the Jihad. It was a backwater chosen for the C.E.T. venue because it was the home of humankind and its religions. There were still some people living there with ties to those religions, making it necessary to search for a "neutral" ground to meet on.

But I waffle....

I want to say that FH wrote about Earth only being significant as the origin of the species but I can't remember for sure.

Yeah, I don't think Earth was entirely forgotten, but the general population didn't seem to have any real recollection of it. I'm sure it still exists, but doesn't have a lot of significance for anyone at that point. I'm guessing it's just some out-of-the-way planet that noone really cares much about.

Who knows, it may even have a different name (Gansireed maybe?)

dunepunk wrote:Yeah, I don't think Earth was entirely forgotten, but the general population didn't seem to have any real recollection of it. I'm sure it still exists, but doesn't have a lot of significance for anyone at that point. I'm guessing it's just some out-of-the-way planet that noone really cares much about.

Who knows, it may even have a different name (Gansireed maybe?)

In upcoming Dune books it will be called Super-ultra-mega-robot-earth.

Freakzilla wrote:

dunepunk wrote:Yeah, I don't think Earth was entirely forgotten, but the general population didn't seem to have any real recollection of it. I'm sure it still exists, but doesn't have a lot of significance for anyone at that point. I'm guessing it's just some out-of-the-way planet that noone really cares much about.

Who knows, it may even have a different name (Gansireed maybe?)

In upcoming Dune books it will be called Super-ultra-mega-robot-earth.

Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Get over Gansireed already, everybody. I've seen that posted over at DN several times now. (Not sure or saying that it was you, dunepunk.) Reread the passage where it's mentioned:

Leto crouched in the lee of his dune and waited for the night to settle into its own rhythms. Patience and caution—caution and patience. For a time he amused himself by reviewing Chaucer's route from London to Canterbury, listing the places from Southwark: two miles to the watering-place of St. Thomas, five miles to Deptford, six miles to Greenwich, thirty miles to Rochester, forty miles to Sittingboume, fifty-five miles to Boughton under Blean, fifty-eight miles to Harbledown, and sixty miles to Canterbury. It gave him a sense of timeless buoyancy to know that few in his universe would recall Chaucer or know any London except the village on Gansireed. St. Thomas was preserved in the Orange Catholic Bible and the Azhar Book, but Canterbury was gone from the memories of men, as was the planet which had known it. There lay the burden of his memories, of all those lives which threatened to engulf him. He had made that trip to Canterbury once.

OK now: "...few in his universe would recall Chaucer or know any London except the village on Gansireed." There were more than one London in the history of humankind, but no one besides Leto remembers any of them except people familiar with the (current) village of the same name on Gansireed. Gansireed cannot be Earth.

Note from the second part I emphasized that Earth has been forgotten by most people.

Clear enough?

SandChigger wrote:Get over Gansireed already, everybody. I've seen that posted over at DN several times now. (Not sure or saying that it was you, dunepunk.) Reread the passage where it's mentioned:

Leto crouched in the lee of his dune and waited for the night to settle into its own rhythms. Patience and caution—caution and patience. For a time he amused himself by reviewing Chaucer's route from London to Canterbury, listing the places from Southwark: two miles to the watering-place of St. Thomas, five miles to Deptford, six miles to Greenwich, thirty miles to Rochester, forty miles to Sittingboume, fifty-five miles to Boughton under Blean, fifty-eight miles to Harbledown, and sixty miles to Canterbury. It gave him a sense of timeless buoyancy to know that few in his universe would recall Chaucer or know any London except the village on Gansireed. St. Thomas was preserved in the Orange Catholic Bible and the Azhar Book, but Canterbury was gone from the memories of men, as was the planet which had known it. There lay the burden of his memories, of all those lives which threatened to engulf him. He had made that trip to Canterbury once.

OK now: "...few in his universe would recall Chaucer or know any London except the village on Gansireed." There were more than one London in the history of humankind, but no one besides Leto remembers any of them except people familiar with the (current) village of the same name on Gansireed. Gansireed cannot be Earth.

Note from the second part I emphasized that Earth has been forgotten by most people.

Clear enough?

fair enough. I stand corrected. (oh the dangers of inadequate context...)

Sorry if I came on too strong; was a bit pissy this morning.

You're exactly right, though. "Inadequate (provision of) context" is what has allowed Byron to keep that imbecilic "alien roads" thread going Over There for over a year.

The reading (interpretation) is only as good as the reading (act)!

(And reading is fundamental. )

Wait.

How can someone read that quote and come away with the conclusion that Gansireed is Earth?

Many are the roads, and mysterious the ways....

He says...that no one would remember Chaucer or know any London aside from the village on Gansireed. As in, they wouldn't know Chaucer or Chaucer's London...but rather some other London...

What the Hell. It's literally impossible to read that quote as meaning our Earth London, England and still have enough reading comprehension skill to actually understand the books.

Oh...wait...I guess that's consistent, huh?

EsperandoAGodot wrote:He says...that no one would remember Chaucer or know any London aside from the village on Gansireed. As in, they wouldn't know Chaucer or Chaucer's London...but rather some other London...

Exactly.

What the Hell. It's literally impossible to read that quote as meaning our Earth London, England and still have enough reading comprehension skill to actually understand the books.

Oh...wait...I guess that's consistent, huh?

Don't you love it when it all comes together?

EsperandoAGodot wrote:He says...that no one would remember Chaucer or know any London aside from the village on Gansireed. As in, they wouldn't know Chaucer or Chaucer's London...but rather some other London...

What the Hell. It's literally impossible to read that quote as meaning our Earth London, England and still have enough reading comprehension skill to actually understand the books.

Oh...wait...I guess that's consistent, huh?

It is even worse that I, as a not native English speaker, can not read anything else. When anybody reads anything else in the quoted text it is sufficiënt proof you are either still learning to read or just too plain stupid to ever learn ...

Yes, I mean YOU Merritt!

The Golden Age of Earth, have you ever studied that?
"Earth? Golden Age?"Stilgar was irritated and puzzled. Why would Paul wish to discuss myths from the dawn of time?
...
"Stilgar," Paul said, "you urgently need a sense of balance which can come only from an understanding of long-term effects. What little information we have about the old times, the pittance of data which the Butlerians left for us, Korba has brought it for you. Start with the Genghis Khan."

Earth is at least so well-known that Stilgar recognizes it, and Paul only mentions that they only have a pittance of data about "the old times," not about Earth itself. It's entirely possible that Earth is still around during Paul's reign.

There's never even any hint of Earth's distruction, and Earth (Terra) is mentioned many times.

Ahem.

FH in GEoD wrote:This morning I was born in a yurt at the edge of a horse-plain in a land of a planet which no longer exists.

Unless you assume that in the long millennia a new planet was settled and some (or all) of the people "reverted" to a nomadic lifestyle, that kinda-sorta has to mean Earth and more than "hints" that it has been destroyed by Leto's time. No?

SandChigger wrote:Ahem.

FH in GEoD wrote:This morning I was born in a yurt at the edge of a horse-plain in a land of a planet which no longer exists.

Unless you assume that in the long millennia a new planet was settled and some (or all) of the people "reverted" to a nomadic lifestyle, that kinda-sorta has to mean Earth and more than "hints" that it has been destroyed by Leto's time. No?

I'm with Chig, that's what I always got from thsi quote.

Damn, I keep forgetting that one.

Still, that was a long time after the CET and no one else ever mentions earth's destruction before that (or after, that I can recall).

I can't recall (or find) any mention of actual "destruction", either. It's like Harmonthep, "no longer existent", with no explanation of what happened.

At the time of the Jihad and C.E.T., there were only around 13,000 worlds populated to the degree they could demand representation in the Landsraad. (Plus a periphery of a few thousand+ more sparsely settled planets?) While Earth probably was no longer the center of things (there's that stuff with the 20 hour discrepancy between the primitive and standard years, but no indication of when it originated), it was still important enough culturally (birthplace of the major religions) to be chosen as the venue for the C.E.T. And it was still heavily populated enough by religious people (ya just can't get rid of 'em! )—or adherents of the warring sects, let's say—that they had to find a "neutral" location on the planet.

Later, as the millennia passed, Earth became less and less important. Maybe it was done in by a natural disaster no one could or bothered to prevent....

Another thing to remember is that the "yurt quote" is from The Stolen Journals. Maybe Leto was indulging in a bit of misinformation? Maybe he wanted people to think that Earth was gone for some reason of his own.

hold on there, mister language-translator dude -

what about the use of the word "yurt" makes you assume Leto is referring to earth ?

Ha! What ho and hail, thou cankered greybeard! Thou wouldst dispute my disputation?!

Canst name another world where "a circular tent of felt or skins on a collapsible framework, used by nomads" be known as yurt?


Either he means big-E Earth and the yurts used by Mongolians, Siberians and Turks, or you have to assume another planet as I mentioned above. Occam's razor.

It's by no means conclusive, merely suggestive.

Ah, no.

Ahhh, Tyrant! You droll fellow. You saw it. You said: "I will create order for you to follow. Here is the path. See it? No! Don't look over there. That is the way of the Emperor-Without-Clothes(a nakedness apparent only to children and the insane). Keep your attention where I direct it. This is my Golden Path. Isn't that a pretty name? It's all there is and all there ever will be."
Tyrant, you were another clown. Pointing us into endless recycling of cells from that lost and lonely ball of dirt in our common past.

No real doubt that Odrade is referring to Earth as "that lost and lonely ball of dirt," which, if still around, wouldn't be so "lost and lonely." Bene Gesserit would have recorded the location. Add the Leto quote above, and that's pretty much a fair assurance that Earth no longer exists by the time of Leto's reign.

Maybe not 100% conclusive, but I'm hedging my bets in that direction.

Add to the above the fact that people still know Ecaz:

FH in CH:D wrote:She fell into a semi-reverie, still alert to the sounds behind her, but relishing the evidence of new victories that had been displayed to her this morning. She liked to roll the names of captive planets silently on her tongue.

Wallach, Kronin, Reenol, Ecaz, Bela Tegeuse, Gammu, Gamont, Niushe...

Ecaz, or Alpha Centauri B IV, was no doubt the first planet settled outside the solar system. If the Atreides can still remember they're descended from Atreus after well over two hundred and fifty centuries, surely someone on Ecaz remembers that theirs is the oldest colony world and why.

Earth is conspicuous by its absence.