Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

FH in CoD wrote: "We come at last to the Landsraad," Alia said, voicing her own belief.

"The next Landsraad session is almost two standard years away," Irulan reminded her.

Which begs the question, how often did they meet?

(That's right, I'm obsessed with time this morning! )

I always assumed they were anual or whenever circumstances required.

Kensai wrote:I always assumed they were anual or whenever circumstances required.

If Irulan claims the next one is two years away they are probably not annual. I suppose circumstances could dictate an emergency meeting but if a meeting is planned for two years away the Landsraad probably aren't thinking about circumstances being the motivation for a meeting. A lot of things can change in politics in two years.

The sessions may of been mostly ceremonial, the day to day stuff run by a bureaucracy went about their business out of sight is my guess.

Rob

I am only just reading the Dune series againafter a two-three year break. Where is the quote from?

Kensai wrote:I am only just reading the Dune series againafter a two-three year break. Where is the quote from?

Chapter 2 or 3 in Dune Messiah if I recall correctly.

I just started Messiah the otherday so I'l look out for it.

Serkanner wrote:

Kensai wrote:I am only just reading the Dune series againafter a two-three year break. Where is the quote from?

Chapter 2 or 3 in Dune Messiah if I recall correctly.

Jeez! I should read the topic better next time. First post: FH in CoD = Children of Dune. ( p.86 of my pdf version )

I think this is a lost cause. I don't think there's any other reference to how often they met so all we can assume that it is at least every two years. However, I would think it would take MUCH longer to organize.

Freakzilla wrote:I think this is a lost cause. I don't think there's any other reference to how often they met so all we can assume that it is at least every two years. However, I would think it would take MUCH longer to organize.

Agreed. I read it as understood. Like most things in Herbert's world - the Landsraad is not the platform for the "ideal government," just a tool to point out how everything in his story ties together.

I aways thought of it as something akin to the English Parliament before Parliament was regularised which is to say the Emperor could call it whenever he wanted but their would have been an infrequent meeting every say 5 years.

When you think how the Empire was run their was not a huge need for Landsraad to meet that often. The laws were pretty much enshrined and each planet was run by its house. I would think the only reason to call Parliament was if the Emperor needed troops or mabye levy some sort of extrodinary tax. Neither of which seemed very likely. The Emperor most likely had a quasi-judical function to arbitrate between house disputes but this would not need all parties to sit.

Most likely the Emperor would not want the Landsraad sitting too regularly much like the old English Kings who would often suspend Parliament for years and years. . .

Good point.

And welcome!

Yup. Welcome!

In book One, Paul mentions the possibility of the Duke convening the Landsraad to expose the Emperor's planned betrayal. So it may be possible for one of the Houses Major to call a meeting in some circumstances.

It had to be possible, hard to have a functioning government that only ever meets on set dates and if there's an emergency they just say "oops, gotta wait till the next meeting".

I don't think of the Landsraad as a functioning government body. More a para-government organization, like the U.N. or a parliamentary council. Even under Shaddam IV, the interplanetary government was monarchy. All of the middle managers just got together to give their collected gripes to the CEO. Not to say that the Landsraad is a powerless organization, just divided small powers using collective bargaining.

PaxVass wrote:I aways thought of it as something akin to the English Parliament before Parliament was regularised which is to say the Emperor could call it whenever he wanted but their would have been an infrequent meeting every say 5 years.

When you think how the Empire was run their was not a huge need for Landsraad to meet that often. The laws were pretty much enshrined and each planet was run by its house. I would think the only reason to call Parliament was if the Emperor needed troops or mabye levy some sort of extrodinary tax. Neither of which seemed very likely. The Emperor most likely had a quasi-judical function to arbitrate between house disputes but this would not need all parties to sit.

Most likely the Emperor would not want the Landsraad sitting too regularly much like the old English Kings who would often suspend Parliament for years and years. . .

It was probably laborious planning a meeting that involved everyone in the Landsraad. The human race was pretty frickin' huge at that point.

lukecash12 wrote:It was probably laborious planning a meeting that involved everyone in the Landsraad. The human race was pretty frickin' huge at that point.

The size of the race is unimportant at this point since the Imperium is not a representative democracy. What matters is the number of Great Houses and how many representatives they send.

SandChigger wrote:

lukecash12 wrote:It was probably laborious planning a meeting that involved everyone in the Landsraad. The human race was pretty frickin' huge at that point.

The size of the race is unimportant at this point since the Imperium is not a representative democracy. What matters is the number of Great Houses and how many representatives they send.

Right. I was working under the assumption that many Houses held just a few fiefs, and that implicated to me that there was an enormous number of Houses (probably why it's discussed fairly often throughout the first three books that they didn't want to make the Houses feel threatened in general, because they would be overwhelmed).

Yeah, Paul felt it was very important not to antagonize the nobility. That's why he threatened to destroy the Spice if the Guild didn't play ball. That's why he launched a Jihad that killed billions. That's why he stripped the Emperor of all his CHOAM holdings and insisted on giving titles and governorships for every surviving Atreides soldier.

The Corrinos were concerned about the balance of power, not the Atreides. From Paul onwards, the Atreides were perfectly willing to stomp on everyone else to get what they wanted. Only in union did the Landsraad match the Sardaukar. When united against the Fremen, the Great Houses still stood no chance. The Atreides only had to worry about keeping the loyalty of the Fremen.

a regular interval(two years seems kind a quick, but maybe) where all the Houses would come to meet to do the business of the empire (taxes, tributes, announcements, complaints, settle disputes) otherwise the Landsraad was event driven.

After the jihad? powerless, figurehead at best, and no normal interval.

Setzer wrote:Yeah, Paul felt it was very important not to antagonize the nobility. That's why he threatened to destroy the Spice if the Guild didn't play ball. That's why he launched a Jihad that killed billions. That's why he stripped the Emperor of all his CHOAM holdings and insisted on giving titles and governorships for every surviving Atreides soldier.

Setzer wrote:Yeah, Paul felt it was very important not to antagonize the nobility. That's why he threatened to destroy the Spice if the Guild didn't play ball. That's why he launched a Jihad that killed billions. That's why he stripped the Emperor of all his CHOAM holdings and insisted on giving titles and governorships for every surviving Atreides soldier.

The Corrinos were concerned about the balance of power, not the Atreides. From Paul onwards, the Atreides were perfectly willing to stomp on everyone else to get what they wanted. Only in union did the Landsraad match the Sardaukar. When united against the Fremen, the Great Houses still stood no chance. The Atreides only had to worry about keeping the loyalty of the Fremen.

You do have a point, that for a while the Landsraad wasn't a concern. But it was once again in Children of Dune, for Alia. She had a discussion with Duncan and Irulan that expressed that, amongst other things.

lukecash12 wrote:

Setzer wrote:Yeah, Paul felt it was very important not to antagonize the nobility. That's why he threatened to destroy the Spice if the Guild didn't play ball. That's why he launched a Jihad that killed billions. That's why he stripped the Emperor of all his CHOAM holdings and insisted on giving titles and governorships for every surviving Atreides soldier.

The Corrinos were concerned about the balance of power, not the Atreides. From Paul onwards, the Atreides were perfectly willing to stomp on everyone else to get what they wanted. Only in union did the Landsraad match the Sardaukar. When united against the Fremen, the Great Houses still stood no chance. The Atreides only had to worry about keeping the loyalty of the Fremen.

You do have a point, that for a while the Landsraad wasn't a concern. But it was once again in Children of Dune, for Alia. She had a discussion with Duncan and Irulan that expressed that, amongst other things.

That was because House Corrino then became just another Great House of the Landsraad. The Sardaukar plus the combined forces of the rest of the landsraad might could beat the Atreides.

Freakzilla wrote:

lukecash12 wrote:

Setzer wrote:Yeah, Paul felt it was very important not to antagonize the nobility. That's why he threatened to destroy the Spice if the Guild didn't play ball. That's why he launched a Jihad that killed billions. That's why he stripped the Emperor of all his CHOAM holdings and insisted on giving titles and governorships for every surviving Atreides soldier.

The Corrinos were concerned about the balance of power, not the Atreides. From Paul onwards, the Atreides were perfectly willing to stomp on everyone else to get what they wanted. Only in union did the Landsraad match the Sardaukar. When united against the Fremen, the Great Houses still stood no chance. The Atreides only had to worry about keeping the loyalty of the Fremen.

You do have a point, that for a while the Landsraad wasn't a concern. But it was once again in Children of Dune, for Alia. She had a discussion with Duncan and Irulan that expressed that, amongst other things.

That was because House Corrino then became just another Great House of the Landsraad. The Sardaukar plus the combined forces of the rest of the landsraad might could beat the Atreides.

I don't think so. After all, House Corrino only had one legion left. Even if it was back up to the standards that made the Sardaukar feared, that wouldn't break the Guild's stranglehold on space travel, or the Atreides stranglehold on the guild. The enemies of the Atreides weren't focusing on building their militaries so much as they were focusing on undermining the Atreides dynasty and splitting them from the Fremen.