"New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

[Eru]

My point is that it's not "an eccentric speech pattern" or a speech impediment at all, but part of a secret humming language employed by his wife and himself, which is not depicted at all in the new canon.

[Lundse]

My point is that it's not "an eccentric speech pattern" or a speech impediment at all, but part of a secret humming language employed by his wife and himself, which is not depicted at all in the new canon.

I got the impression it was also to annoy people, to set them off balance (at least that's how I remember his encounter with the Baron).

[Eru]

p. 322

"The pressure's on," the Count hummed to his lady in their secret language. "The Baron is just beginning to see the price he really paid to rid himself of the Duke Leto."

p. 338

Count Fenring faced his lady, spoke again in their personal humming-code tongue; "You saw it, of course?"
In the same humming tongue, she said: "The lad knew the gladiator wouldn't be drugged. there was a moment of fear, yes, but no surprise."

[Nekhrun]

p. 322

"The pressure's on," the Count hummed to his lady in their secret language. "The Baron is just beginning to see the price he really paid to rid himself of the Duke Leto."

p. 338

Count Fenring faced his lady, spoke again in their personal humming-code tongue; "You saw it, of course?"
In the same humming tongue, she said: "The lad knew the gladiator wouldn't be drugged. there was a moment of fear, yes, but no surprise."

But why doesn't she ever do it then?

[lotek]

My point is that it's not "an eccentric speech pattern" or a speech impediment at all, but part of a secret humming language employed by his wife and himself, which is not depicted at all in the new canon.

I got the impression it was also to annoy people, to set them off balance (at least that's how I remember his encounter with the Baron).

I think it is both a secret language and to annoy people.

But remember when the Count visits Giedi Prime(when Feyd kills the Atreides soldier in the arena)

The Count spoke to his lady: "Um-m-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m, you mm-m will ah-h-h
excuse us, my dear?"
"Each day, some time each hour, brings change," she said. "Mm-m-m-m." And
she smiled sweetly at the Baron before turning away. Her long skirts swished and
she walked with a straight-backed regal stride toward the double doors at the
end of the hall.
The Baron noted how all conversation among the Houses Minor there stopped at
her approach, how the eyes followed her. Bene Gesserit! the Baron thought. The
universe would be better rid of them all!
"There's a cone of silence between two of the pillars over here on our
left," the Baron said. "We can talk there without fear of being overheard." He
led the way with his waddling gait into the sound-deadening field, feeling the
noises of the keep become dull and distant.
The Count moved up beside the Baron, and they turned, facing the wall so
their lips could not be read.
"We're not satisfied with the way you ordered the Sardaukar off Arrakis,"
the Count said.
Straight talk! the Baron thought.
"The Sardaukar could not stay longer without risking that others would find
out how the Emperor helped me," the Baron said.
"But your nephew Rabban does not appear to be pressing strongly enough
toward a solution of the Fremen problem."
"What does the Emperor wish?" the Baron asked. "There cannot be more than a
handful of Fremen left on Arrakis. The southern desert is uninhabitable. The
northern desert is swept regularly by our patrols."
"Who says the southern desert is uninhabitable?"
"Your own planetologist said it, my dear Count."
"But Doctor Kynes is dead."
"Ah, yes . . . unfortunate, that."
"We've word from an overflight across the southern reaches," the Count said.
"There's evidence of plant life."
"Has the Guild then agreed to a watch from space?"
"You know better than that, Baron. The Emperor cannot legally post a watch
on Arrakis."
"And I cannot afford it," the Baron said. "Who made this overflight?"
"A . . . smuggler."
"Someone has lied to you, Count," the Baron said. "Smugglers cannot
navigate, the southern reaches any better than can Rabban's men. Storms, sandstatic,
and all that, you know. Navigation markers are knocked out faster than
they can be installed."
"We'll discuss various types of static another time," the Count said.
Ah-h-h-h, the Baron thought. "Have you found some mistake in my accounting
then?" he demanded.
"When you imagine mistakes there can be no self-defense," the Count said.
He's deliberately trying to arouse my anger, the Baron thought. He took two
deep breaths to calm himself. He could smell his own sweat, and the harness of
the suspensors beneath his robe felt suddenly itchy and galling.
"The Emperor cannot be unhappy about the death of the concubine and the
boy," the Baron said. "They fled into the desert. There was a storm."
"Yes, there were so many convenient accidents," the Count agreed
"I do not like your tone, Count," the Baron said.
"Anger is one thing, violence another," the Count said. "Let me caution you:
Should an unfortunate accident occur to me here the Great Houses all would learn
what you did on Arrakis. They've long suspected how you do business."
"The only recent business I can recall," the Baron said, "was transportation
of several legions of Sardaukar to Arrakis."
"You think you could hold that over the Emperor's head?"
"I wouldn't think of it!"
The Count smiled. "Sardaukar commanders could be found who'd confess they
acted without orders because they wanted a battle with your Fremen scum."
"Many might doubt such a confession," the Baron said, but the threat
staggered him. Are Sardaukar truly that disciplined? he wondered.
"The Emperor does wish to audit your books," the Count said.
"Any time."
"You . . . ah . . . have no objections?"
"None. My CHOAM Company directorship will bear the closest scrutiny." And he
thought: Let him bring a false accusation against me and have it exposed. I
shall stand there, Promethean, saying: "Behold me, I am wronged. " Then let him
bring any other accusation against me, even a true one. The Great Houses will
not believe a second attack from an accuser once proved wrong.
"No doubt your books will bear the closest scrutiny," the Count muttered.
"Why is the Emperor so interested in exterminating the Fremen?" the Baron
asked.
"You wish the subject to be changed, eh?" The Count shrugged. "It is the
Sardaukar who wish it, not the Emperor. They needed practice in killing . . .
and they hate to see a task left undone."
Does he think to frighten me by reminding me that he is supported by
bloodthirsty killers? the Baron wondered.
"A certain amount of killing has always been an arm of business," the Baron
said, "but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Someone must be left to work the
spice."
The Count emitted a short, barking laugh. "You think you can harness the
Fremen?"
"There never were enough of them for that," the Baron said. "But the killing
has made the rest of my population uneasy. It's reaching the point where I'm
considering another solution to the Arrakeen problem, my dear Fenring. And I
must confess the Emperor deserves credit for the inspiration."
"Ah-h-h?"
"You see, Count, I have the Emperor's prison planet, Salusa Secundus, to
inspire me."
The Count stared at him with glittering intensity. "What possible connection
is there between Arrakis and Salusa Secundus?"
The Baron felt the alertness in Fenring's eyes, said: "No connection yet."
"Yet?"
"You must admit it'd be a way to develop a substantial work force on
Arrakis--use the place as a prison planet."
"You anticipate an increase in prisoners?"
"There has been unrest," the Baron admitted. "I've had to squeeze rather
severely, Fenring. After all, you know the price I paid that damnable Guild to
transport our mutual force to Arrakis. That money has to come from somewhere."
"I suggest you not use Arrakis as a prison planet without the Emperor's
permission, Baron."
"Of course not," the Baron said, and he wondered at the sudden chill in
Fenring's voice.
"Another matter," the Count said. "We learn that Duke Leto's Mentat, Thufir
Hawat, is not dead but in your employ."
"I could not bring myself to waste him," the Baron said.
"You lied to our Sardaukar commander when you said Hawat was dead."
"Only a white lie, my dear Count. I hadn't the stomach for a long argument
with the man."
"Was Hawat the real traitor?"
"Oh, goodness, no! It was the false doctor." The Baron wiped at perspiration
on his neck. "You must understand, Fenring, I was without a Mentat. You know
that. I've never been without a Mentat. It was most unsettling."
"How could you get Hawat to shift allegiance?"
"His Duke was dead." The Baron forced a smile. "There's nothing to fear from
Hawat, my dear Count. The Mentat's flesh has been impregnated with a latent
poison. We administer an antidote in his meals. Without the antidote, the poison
is triggered--he'd die in a few days."
"Withdraw the antidote," the Count said.
"But he's useful!"
"And he knows too many things no living man should know."
"You said the Emperor doesn't fear exposure."
"Don't play games with me, Baron!"
"When I see such an order above the Imperial seal I'll obey it," the Baron
said. "But I'll not submit to your whim."
"You think it whim?"
"What else can it be? The Emperor has obligations to me, too, Fenring. I rid
him of the troublesome Duke."
"With the help of a few Sardaukar."
"Where else would the Emperor have found a House to provide the disguising
uniforms to hide his hand in this matter?"
"He has asked himself the same question, Baron, but with a slightly
different emphasis."
The Baron studied Fenring, noting the stiffness of jaw muscles, the careful
control. "Ah-h-h, now," the Baron said. "I hope the Emperor doesn't believe he
can move against me in total secrecy."
"He hopes it won't become necessary."
"The Emperor cannot believe I threaten him!" The Baron permitted anger and
grief to edge his voice, thinking: Let him wrong me in that! I could place
myself on the throne while still beating my breast over how I'd been wronged.
The Count's voice went dry and remote as he said: "The Emperor believes what
his senses tell him."
"Dare the Emperor charge me with treason before a full Landsraad Council?"
And the Baron held his breath with the hope of it.
"The Emperor need dare nothing."
The Baron whirled away in his suspensors to hide his expression. It could
happen in my lifetime! he thought. Emperor! Let him wrong me! Then--the bribes
and coercion, the rallying of the Great Houses: they'd flock to my banner like
peasants running for shelter. The thing they fear above all else is the
Emperor's Sardaukar loosed upon them one House at a time.
"It's the Emperor's sincere hope he'll never have to charge you with
treason," the Count said.
The Baron found it difficult to keep irony out of his voice and permit only
the expression of hurt, but he managed. "I've been a most loyal subject. These
words hurt me beyond my capacity to express."
"Um-m-m-m-ah-hm-m-m," said the Count.
The Baron kept his back to the Count, nodding. Presently he said, "It's time
to go to the arena."
"Indeed," said the Count.
They moved out of the cone of silence and, side by side, walked toward the
clumps of Houses Minor at the end of the hall. A bell began a slow tolling
somewhere in the keep--twenty-minute warning for the arena gathering.

so there is an occurrence of the "humming" before they leave the cone of silence, so it cannot be used as a secret language and was made to be annoying, but just before they do the Count hums to his wife

So there you have it you're both wrong and right!

Now make up lol

[merkin muffley]

My point is that it's not "an eccentric speech pattern" or a speech impediment at all, but part of a secret humming language employed by his wife and himself, which is not depicted at all in the new canon.

I got the impression it was also to annoy people, to set them off balance (at least that's how I remember his encounter with the Baron).

Fenring and Margot seem to be in complete control of this manner of speaking, using it to their advantage in negotiations and social sparring in public:

There he goes again, Feyd-Rautha thought. It sounds like he's being insulting, but there's nothing you can call out for satisfaction
Listening to the man gave Feyd-Rautha the feeling his head was being pushed through mush... um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m

As soon as Fenring and the Baron go into the cone of silence at the arena, to talk in private, he switches out of that mannerism completely: "We're not satisfied with the way you ordered the Sardaukar off Arrakis," the Count said.
Straight talk! the Baron thought.

Fenring is a brilliant character. I don't think they've ever come close to getting him right on film, which bothers me, because his character would give an actor so many interesting things to do.

And OF COURSE they don't have anything about this speech pattern in the new books! They can't figure out a character like Fenring. This is a perfect example of the way that the characters in the new books have the same names but absolutely none of the depth that Frank Herbert gives them. What a waste. What a couple of twats. They deserve all the scorn that they get.

[Eru]

Whenever he uses it not around his wife I take it to be him making a comment to himself. I'm fairly certain there is a quote to support this, something along the lines of "Fenring said 'hmmmmmmm um ah ummm ah mmmm,' and then laughed to himself as to a private joke." And the Lady Fenring does make use of the humming, just not as much:

Listening to the man gave Feyd-Rautha the feeling his head was being pushed through much...um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m! Feyd-Rautha turned his attention back to the Lady Fenring.
"We're ah-h-h taking up too much of this young man's time," she said.

The Count spoke to his lady: "Um-m-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m, you mm-m will ah-h-h excuse us, my dear?"
"Each day, some time each hour, brings change," she said. "Mm-m-m-m." And she smiled sweetly at the Baron before turning away.

[SandRider]

nah, this one's simple and straight forward - Frank tells you the humming is a private language,
and Keith never read Dune .... (that part wasn't in the movie or SyFy series, so it's not his fault)

[merkin muffley]

nah, this one's simple and straight forward - Frank tells you the humming is a private language,

Definitely: "Count Fenring faced his lady, spoke again in their personal humming-code tongue"

I also figured that there was a slight distinction between the all-out personal code the Fenrings use with each other, and the variations the Count uses when he's talking to other people. At the end of the arena chapter they transition completely into a personal language that no one else can understand, and nothing is spelled phonetically in that conversation. Whereas, the humming appears phonetically when Fenring is using (or not using) it intentionally when he's talking to Feyd and the Baron.



Another thing from that scene that points out an important inconsistency (but I'm not sure):
[looking at Feyd-Rautha]
"Lady Fenring, noting the young man's poise and the sure flow of muscles beneath the tunic thought:Here's one who won't let himself go to fat."

As in, the Baron is fat because he has overindulged himself, as opposed to him getting some kind of venereal disease that makes him fat when he rapes Mohiam. Is there anything from Frank Herbert's writing that suggests the Baron is fat because of a disease? It seemed clear to me that among this character's most important flaws are his greed and his tendency to overindulge himself, and I always thought it was a stupid idea to change this into an STD the way they did in McDune.

[SandChigger]

Is there anything from Frank Herbert's writing that suggests the Baron is fat because of a disease?

Unless you consider gluttony and a desire to be gross in order to shock people diseases, no.

[quote:It seemed clear to me that among this character's most important flaws are his greed and his tendency to overindulge himself, and I always thought it was a stupid idea to change this into an STD the way they did in McDune.[/quote]
Yep.

But that's KJA for ya.

[lotek]

the humming is both a secret language and a way to put people off balance:

if you have a look at my Dune quote on the previous page you will find the Count "mmmh"s at the Baron while they are in the cone of silence(so obviously where no one else can hear them.

This makes it even more difficult to comprehend for the Hack: two different concepts at the same time?
Better make it a speech impediment, if I can't understand with my superior writing skills who can?

[MrFlibble]

It's true the humming served both purposes, to pu other people off balance and as a secret means of communication with Lady Margot.

Feyd-Rautha found the man's actions and words almost insulting. They stopped just short of something overt that would require notice. The young man focused his attention on the Count: a small man, weak-looking. The face was weaselish with overlarge dark eyes. There was gray at the temples. And his movements - he moved a hand or turned his head one way, then he spoke another way. It was difficult to follow.
"Um-m-m-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m, you come upon such, mm-m-m, preciseness so rarely," the Count said, addressing the Baron's shoulder. "I . . . ah, congratulate you on the hm-m-m perfection of your ah-h-h heir. In the light of the hm-m-m elder, one might say."
"You are too kind," the Baron said. He bowed, but Feyd-Rautha noted that his uncle's eyes did not agree with the courtesy.
"When you're mm-m-m ironic, that ah-h-h suggests you're hm-m-m-m thinking deep thoughts," the Count said.
There he goes again, Feyd-Rautha thought. It sounds like he's being insulting, but there's nothing you can call out for satisfaction.
Listening to the man gave Feyd-Rautha the feeling his head was being pushed through mush . . . um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m! Feyd-Rautha turned his attention back to the Lady Fenring.

Fenring is pretty much deception incarnate, and his double-purpose humming contributes to this.

[merkin muffley]

Unless you consider gluttony and a desire to be gross in order to shock people diseases, no.

But that's KJA for ya.

So, the Baron is a completely different character in the prequels and many of the character relationships and interactions in the original Dune don't make sense. Now the Baron is a person who would be an Adonis if he didn't have a disease, and it's all so they can have a stupid sub-plot. We're forced to choose between the universe created by Frank and the one they've created, because the two are irreconcilable. And it's an easy choice because theirs is stupid and hackneyed. So, part of my personal "agenda" is that I don't think Fenring should be a flat character, and I think the Baron's character should make sense. Ban me.

[MrFlibble]

I think the entire story arc with the Baron having been a handsome narcissistic man in his younger days was shamelessly lifted from the Encyclopedia. I remember reading there that even his attraction to boys was not homosexuality per se, but rather a pursuit to love his younger self, so much self-centered and narcissistic he was. I don't think anything of this was elaborated by FH to any extent, but perhaps this interpretation was consistent with his own ideas, maybe they discussed this in conversations with McNelly (?)

[Eru]

Kind of a moot point to this thread, but I'm still convinced that when Fenring does it while not around Margot, he's talking to himself. Anybody with digital copies able to find a quote supporting this? I'm tired of trying to sift through my physical copy.

Regarding the Baron: there is also a mention of the Baron's diseases in the Lynch film. Just wanted to point that out. It's interesting how it seems that P&B are more consistent with non-canon old Dune (Dune 1984 or DE) than the actual Frank Herbert novels.

[merkin muffley]

there is also a mention of the Baron's diseases in the Lynch film

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of the Baron having diseases that come from gluttony and disgusting habits. But to me, the Baron has degraded himself over time, through constantly overindulging in everything, rather than having been infected once. If he was only infected by something one time, it's not really the same character. He's not responsible for his physical condition in the same way, and his physical condition is no longer a manifestation of his loathsome habits. Now, someone has taken revenge on him one occasion, and it suggests he might not have become so physically distorted if it wasn't for something Mohiam did.

I also think that the Baron is definitely a narcissistic character in the original Dune. I think narcissism is entirely consistent with his gluttony and sadism.

[SandRider]

again: Keith hasn't actually read Dune - watched the movies, listened to Brian talk about the
one time he read the book - somebody (probably Becky) read the DE, and lifted a bunch of
ideas from there they won't credit ...

[lotek]

you mean they brainstormed no?

[TheDukester]

But to me, the Baron has degraded himself over time, through constantly overindulging in everything, rather than having been infected once.

Further, it's the difference between lazy story-telling and effective story-telling. Relying on an A-->>B answer oversimplifies everything is an "easy out" for an author with few skills (and, further, an audience who can't think for themselves). Having the baron slowly backslide over time is much more effective (more tragic, even), and presents a fuller picture of the character for the reader.

[Eru]

again: Keith hasn't actually read Dune - watched the movies, listened to Brian talk about the
one time he read the book - somebody (probably Becky) read the DE, and lifted a bunch of
ideas from there they won't credit ...

I've obviously missed something having been off-line for quite a while...who is this "Keith" you all keep referring to?

[Freakzilla]

again: Keith hasn't actually read Dune - watched the movies, listened to Brian talk about the
one time he read the book - somebody (probably Becky) read the DE, and lifted a bunch of
ideas from there they won't credit ...

I've obviously missed something having been off-line for quite a while...who is this "Keith" you all keep referring to?

Someone, somewhere online refered to KJA as "Keith" and it stuck.

[Eru]

Oooooo, I've always just referred to him as "The Hack"

[TheDukester]

Someone, somewhere online refered to KJA as "Keith" and it stuck.

Barsoom Bob, that Martian wingnut who likes Dune and loves the Dual Hacks, called him "Keith" a couple of times. I think he did it once at Amazon, which led to much hilarity. I'll see if I can find it.

[TheDukester]

Wow, that was surprisingly easy ... maybe I need to get out more.

Ladies and gents, I give you "Kudos to Brian and Keith."

http://goo.gl/8IAC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[lotek]

yeah I remember that one, quite funny
and another one bites the dust

ps: isn't it great how the crazies just luuuurv B&H?