Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I think this is the first time I've read Messiah and didn't just zip through it. This has me thinking more about Hayt. Some of you have probably already discussed this stuff on other sites, but I haven't.

Why do you think the Tleilaxu gave him metal eyes? In the past I'd always assumed they did that because their technology hadn't advanced enough to give him real eyes, but now I think they did it on purpose. They knew the superstition regarding metal eyes enslaving the user. Perhaps this was one of the ways in which Scytale was giving Paul (and Alia) an escape from the trap. A warning that Hayt was more than a Duncan Idaho ghola. They had no idea he'd ever regain his true self when they created him.

Why the name "Hayt"? In my past readings I've always pronounced his name like "Hyatt", this is something I do with names in books sometimes, I just choose a mental pronunciation and stick with it. The first time I read this book I was probably still a teenager so I wasn't picking up on all the hidden meanings. Then the name stuck, and I never thought to correct myself til now. Is it pronounced like "hate"? That would be another way to make Paul and Alia nervous, not to mention Hayt, himself.

Mandy wrote:I think this is the first time I've read Messiah and didn't just zip through it. This has me thinking more about Hayt. Some of you have probably already discussed this stuff on other sites, but I haven't.

Why do you think the Tleilaxu gave him metal eyes? In the past I'd always assumed they did that because their technology hadn't advanced enough to give him real eyes, but now I think they did it on purpose. They knew the superstition regarding metal eyes enslaving the user. Perhaps this was one of the ways in which Scytale was giving Paul (and Alia) an escape from the trap. A warning that Hayt was more than a Duncan Idaho ghola.

I think that's a strong posibility.

They had no idea he'd ever regain his true self when they created him.

On the contrary, I think they were hoping he would:

"So it's truly Duncan Idaho of the Atreides," Scytale said. "We found the
lever! A ghola can regain his past." Paul heard footsteps. Someone brushed past
him on the left. Scytale's voice came from behind him now. "What do you remember
of your past, Duncan?"
"Everything. From my childhood on. I even remember you at the tank when they
removed me from it," Idaho said.
"Wonderful," Scytale breathed. "Wonderful."

Why the name "Hayt"? In my past readings I've always pronounced his name like "Hyatt", this is something I do with names in books sometimes, I just choose a mental pronunciation and stick with it. The first time I read this book I was probably still a teenager so I wasn't picking up on all the hidden meanings. Then the name stuck, and I never thought to correct myself til now. Is it pronounced like "hate"? That would be another way to make Paul and Alia nervous, not to mention Hayt, himself.

I believe Duncan even says so to Paul. He at least told Paul he was a weapon against him.

Paul weighed the answer. Truthsense told him Edric sincerely believed the
ghola to be Idaho. But there was more. The waters of Time through which this
oracular Steersman moved suggested dangers without revealing them. Hayt. The
Tleilaxu name spoke of peril. Paul felt himself tempted to reject the gift. Even
as he felt the temptation, he knew he couldn't choose that way. This flesh made
demands on House Atreides -- a fact the enemy well knew.

That was after he'd regained his memories. I think that was one of the Tleilaxu's goals with any ghola they created, they knew the memories were locked away somewhere in there.

Hayt is definitely one of the most interesting characters in Dune Messiah; I always love the way he plays verbally with everyone using his Zensunni training, especially with Alia.

When Scytale says, "We found the lever!" It strongly suggests they were planning some way of retrieving the memories. If Frank thought that memory could possibly be stored via genetics, then he would definitely have the Tleilaxu know it, and they would be searching for a way to unlock it.

Mandy wrote:That was after he'd regained his memories. I think that was one of the Tleilaxu's goals with any ghola they created, they knew the memories were locked away somewhere in there.

Yes, and Duncan was the first to successfully regain them, this was the start of the Masters use of ghola-immortality.

Hayt could have been the culmination of their research into awakening a ghola's memories. That would make a lot of sense, but risky since they were also wanting him to end the Atreides.

Mandy wrote:Hayt could have been the culmination of their research into awakening a ghola's memories. That would make a lot of sense, but risky since they were also wanting him to end the Atreides.

It could have been a way to hedge their bets. "If we don't force the emperor to abdicate we might at least get immortality out if it."

What do you think the Tleilaxu's kwisatz haderach's abilities would have been? Would he have had access to Other Memory? It's mentioned in Dune Messiah that the Tleilaxu had created their own kwisatz haderach, but nothing much is said about him.

chanilover wrote:What do you think the Tleilaxu's kwisatz haderach's abilities would have been? Would he have had access to Other Memory? It's mentioned in Dune Messiah that the Tleilaxu had created their own kwisatz haderach, but nothing much is said about him.

Except that it was an experiment in absolutes and that he would rather die than become his opposites.

That was the point of the experiment, to find a way to force Paul to renounce his religion. I don't think he necessarily had to have any powers.

I don't believe OM worked with BT, according to BG-BT offspring.

about the tleilaxu eyes:

I seem to remember that when Paul loses his eyesight from the stone burner knowingly sacrificing his soldiers, he orders for them to be offered BT eyes.
Isn't there a quote implying they're always made of metal?


about Hayt:
as always with Dune it's plans within plans and meaning after meaning, so it would be natural that an attack on the Atreides from the BT would be on several levels:
-the straightforward elimination
-bringing confusion with the ghost of an ancient friend
-bringing a potential mate for Alia

and of course as said before the contengency plan that would transform failure into the road to immortality, masterful IMO, when not succeeding brings an even bigger prize than true success.

lotek wrote:about the tleilaxu eyes:
Isn't there a quote implying they're always made of metal?

That's not what I was talking about, though .. later Duncan gholas have real eyes.

I think that your hunch about the superstition surrounding the eyes is probably correct Mandy. Either that or FH just thought they'd be cool.

Mandy wrote:

lotek wrote:about the tleilaxu eyes:
Isn't there a quote implying they're always made of metal?

That's not what I was talking about, though .. later Duncan gholas have real eyes.

yes later...
the first Duncan ghola, Hayt, has metal eyes just like any other Tleilaxu ghola at the same time in the Imperium
So if the BT have a specific reason for giving him metallic eyes it has to be the same for every other ghola they created.

Which is why I thought that your saying they did it to feed superstition and awe would fit perfectly with Tleilaxu strategies.
After all they did choose to look like ancient elfin demons, grey skin pointy ears and teeth.

Now the question would be, why did they give real eyes to the next Duncans?

Leto demanded they not?

Redstar wrote:Leto demanded they not?

simple as that?
I don't remember that detail...

any idea why he did that?

lotek wrote:

Redstar wrote:Leto demanded they not?

simple as that?
I don't remember that detail...

any idea why he did that?

Don't know, really. I imagine that'd be the rationale. At least all the majorly-different gholas were immediately killed as stated by the DE.

Or maybe the eyes just went out of fashion.

I checked it was a fabrication default, now I remember it was pretty straigt forward answer

Did Bijaz have metal eyes? I don't remember anything about every ghola having metal eyes.

Me either, could just be my memory though.

Mandy wrote:Did Bijaz have metal eyes? I don't remember anything about every ghola having metal eyes.

good point...
needs checking!

I still seem to remember there was an official reason for the metal eyes, something like eyes being too fragile to survive the ghola process.


Found this while searching, looks cool

At present, there are no artificial or replacement eyes. However, scientists at the Space Vacuum Epitaxy Centre (SVEC) (University of Houston, Texas), have developed, tiny ceramic photocells that could detect incoming light and so ‘repair’ malfunctioning human eyes.

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=74" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't believe everything a Tleilaxu tells you!

well i wouldn't trust someone who looks like that

lotek wrote:well i wouldn't trust someone who looks like that

That was the idea.

no one would look that way by accident if they mastered genetics

I think he's cute.

looks like the current Governor of Texas