Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

FH in GEoD wrote: "... Within three hundred years, the sandworm once more will reign here. It will be a new kind of sandworm, I promise you."

"How is that, Lord?"

"It will have animal awareness and a new cunning. The spice will be more dangerous to seek and far more perilous to keep."

Doesn't say anything there about any change in THE WAY THE SPICE ORIGINATES. I don't see anything about the spice being produced INSIDE a worm. Anyone see that anywhere?

FAIL.

And that post-Leto-changed-worms excuse is STRAIGHT FROM THE FACE ANUS OF KEVIN J. ANDERSON. That's the bullshit ploy he used what, two years ago, in the email interview.

FAIL CYBERSUCK PESTIE IS FAIL.

That's why I said hinted at rather than Canonized.

That's better.

Yeah, but you have to be careful what you say in the presence of children, preeqs, and other small mostly sentient animals; they don't fully understand and as a result often get things all screwed up. (Wait and see, Pestie will return from the Mouth of Kevin with some new dire twisty.)

The use of the word "semen" is unfortunate, because semen is produced within the body of the animal in question. That is not implied in the interview at all IIRC. (Actually, do they say "semen" or "seminal"?)

My interpretation of what they meant was that the presence of the spice, which is created in the aftermath of the spice blow, is required for a small number of the sandtrout that survive the explosion to enter the cyst phase that eventually produces a tiny worm. In other words, the spice acts as a catalyst for the encysting; without it, shellshocked sandtrout would not create the "worm egg" cysts.

But nothing says that the spice itself is produced by the worms, either before or after the hybridization with Leto. A small worm when drowned will vomit out the Water of Life. Sandtrout could be induced to exude a spicy liquid (that children drank "for quick vitalization", and Leto's sandtrout covering produced "drops of moisture heavily laced with spice-essence", which evidently met the needs of his spice-addicted human parts, but neither of those is the spice of the sands or represents its origin or basis.

Sorry to interject in your fine mudslinging back and forth, but from what I see, the crux of this whole discussion is this:

1) In Dune, the worms (vector) do not produce the spice (we all agree here).
2a) In KJA's books, the worms produce the spice (the OH reading of KJAs dictations).
2b) In KJA's books, spice works just like in Dune, and KJA has a certain propensity for using "sandworm" to refer to all stages of the sandworm lifecycle (the NuDune view).


The whole thing comes down to how you read stuff like this 8got those from Sandchiggers posts):

Using carefully mapped models from sandtrout chromosomes, Waff knew that these creatures had the same internal metabolic reactions as a traditional sandworm.
Therefore, they should still produce spice, but Waff didn't know what kind of spice, or how it would be harvested. He stepped back, interlocking his grayish fingers.

As if connected directly with Monarch's nervous system, Sheeana could see through the eyeless worm to its companions beneath the sand. Working together, the seven sandworms were forming small veins of spice in the cargo hold.

The last one is obvious, of course. There are seven sandworms, they are producing spice. Unless you are claiming that Sheeana is refering to them playing with the spice like children on the beach, forming small veins for no apparent reason?

Anyway, instead of all the shouting and back and forth what an organism, life vector, etc. is - I would much rather hear some way of reading that last quote to mean that the sandworms were not, in fact, producing small veins of spice. I am not holding my breath, though.

If the authors had a clue we wouldn't need to have these discussions. Their fans shouldn't have to tell us, "that's what was written, but this is what they meant", for every damned paragraph, not counting the ones that are pure repetition. If their writing was half way decent I might give it to them occasionally, but you have to work harder to make sense of their stream of unconsiousness than you do to understand FH's work.

I'm burning my copy of SoD today, and I will film it to prove I did it...

Freakzilla wrote:If the authors had a clue we wouldn't need to have these discussions. Their fans shouldn't have to tell us, "that's what was written, but this is what they meant", for every damned paragraph, not counting the ones that are pure repetition. If their writing was half way decent I might give it to them occasionally, but you have to work harder to make sense of their stream of unconsiousness than you do to understand FH's work.

Well put.

Nekhrun wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:If the authors had a clue we wouldn't need to have these discussions. Their fans shouldn't have to tell us, "that's what was written, but this is what they meant", for every damned paragraph, not counting the ones that are pure repetition. If their writing was half way decent I might give it to them occasionally, but you have to work harder to make sense of their stream of unconsiousness than you do to understand FH's work.

Well put.

Exactly. In Dune, Frank left much not said that could be extrapolated by the reader if he had been following Frank's point up till then. It was a deliberate action by the author to make the reader think for themselves and come to a conclusion. There were also times where he used the reverse of this assuming the reader would also be able to see that he was leading them dilberately in the wrong direction and that the deception itself moved the story along or made a point.

KJA seems to think this defense will work with his own books because here is so much they use to defend their own work that isn't in their own text but they say, or preeqs say can be extrapolated. This doesn't work because at no point in the text does KJA give us any clue that there are hidden meanings in his words, no, he tells you everything you need to know about the story and repeats it multiple times. More often than not, KJA has shown his complete inability to reconcile deceptive prose with fact, in fact its amazing how many of these deceptive facts Frank left in Dune that they actually have found and twisted to their own use. ("sorceresses with real powers" for one...)

Ampoliros wrote:More often than not, KJA has shown his complete inability to reconcile deceptive prose with fact, in fact its amazing how many of these deceptive facts Frank left in Dune that they actually have found and twisted to their own use. ("sorceresses with real powers" for one...)

KJA writes/takes everything literally; there's no gray area nor any room for flowery language (that's not superfluous).

Lundse wrote:Sorry to interject in your fine mudslinging back and forth, but from what I see, the crux of this whole discussion is this:

1) In Dune, the worms (vector) do not produce the spice (we all agree here).
2a) In KJA's books, the worms produce the spice (the OH reading of KJAs dictations).
2b) In KJA's books, spice works just like in Dune, and KJA has a certain propensity for using "sandworm" to refer to all stages of the sandworm lifecycle (the NuDune view).


The whole thing comes down to how you read stuff like this 8got those from Sandchiggers posts):

Using carefully mapped models from sandtrout chromosomes, Waff knew that these creatures had the same internal metabolic reactions as a traditional sandworm.
Therefore, they should still produce spice, but Waff didn't know what kind of spice, or how it would be harvested. He stepped back, interlocking his grayish fingers.

As if connected directly with Monarch's nervous system, Sheeana could see through the eyeless worm to its companions beneath the sand. Working together, the seven sandworms were forming small veins of spice in the cargo hold.

The last one is obvious, of course. There are seven sandworms, they are producing spice. Unless you are claiming that Sheeana is refering to them playing with the spice like children on the beach, forming small veins for no apparent reason?

Anyway, instead of all the shouting and back and forth what an organism, life vector, etc. is - I would much rather hear some way of reading that last quote to mean that the sandworms were not, in fact, producing small veins of spice. I am not holding my breath, though.

Thanks Lundse - I think that last one pretty much puts the nails in the coffin for KJA's understanding of the spice cycle.

RedBugPest - though Chig has been doing a good job countering your posts, Lundse gets the gold medal in this argument by finding TEXT where KJA PROVES he doesn't understand what he's talking about. With Lundse's post you have lost. Get some rest for the next argument.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:RedBugPest - though Chig has been doing a good job countering your posts, Lundse gets the gold medal in this argument by finding TEXT where KJA PROVES he doesn't understand what he's talking about.

In all fairness, chig found those quotes. I just laid them out a bit more thoroughly and without the insults. So Conway can't hide behind "they are just being mean over there" - although he can still "run away" (or research indefinitely, or whatever).

So if you see this, Conway - now the chance to stop focusing on how badly run this board is, how mean chigger is being and how much you would love a real debate. Just tell us how you read that quote differenly than "sandworms were producing spice"...

Lundse wrote:So if you see this, Conway - now the chance to stop focusing on how badly run this board is, how mean chigger is being and how much you would love a real debate. Just tell us how you read that quote differenly than "sandworms were producing spice"...

Here, I'll help you get started (to avoid any ambiguity in that writer/reader cycle):

"I interpreted the quote to mean:"

It only seems badly run if people are picking on you.

I look for him to fall back on this earlier gambit...

redbugpest wrote:I never said that the spice was an internal production...

[snip]

I have never said that I subscribe to worms making spice, other than in the context of the worm being a VECTOR of the organism.

Totally missing the point that NOBODY GIVES A FLYING TRAPEZE FUCK WHAT HE THINKS OR SAYS, it's WHAT KJA HAS WRITTEN that matters.


(Sorry, the total meanness+insult density of the thread was in danger. )

lotek wrote:I'm burning my copy of SoD today, and I will film it to prove I did it...

We should have a rule for any book-burnings that come up - "all book burning must be accompanied by critical analysis of he contents"

Make sure we don't look ign'unt.

Maybe KJA isn't the only one who doesn't understand the spice cycle. Alia in Children of Dune (chapter 11):

Her memory presented a collection of sandworm images: mighty Shai-Hulud, the demiurge of the Fremen, deadly beast of the desert's depths whose outpourings included the priceless spice. How odd it was, this sandworm, to grow from a flat and leathery sandtrout, she thought.

dunaddict wrote:Maybe KJA isn't the only one who doesn't understand the spice cycle. Alia in Children of Dune (chapter 11):

Her memory presented a collection of sandworm images: mighty Shai-Hulud, the demiurge of the Fremen, deadly beast of the desert's depths whose outpourings included the priceless spice. How odd it was, this sandworm, to grow from a flat and leathery sandtrout, she thought.

Possibly, but I'd say it sounds like she is thinking in terms of the god Shai-hulud rather than the physical sandworms. The 'outpouring' is like some sort of blessing I suppose.

outpouring |ˈoutˌpôri ng |
noun
something that streams out rapidly : a massive outpouring of high-energy gamma rays.
• (often outpourings) an outburst of strong emotion : spontaneous outpourings of affection and support | the unprecedented outpouring of tearful grief.

Yes, I remember that scene in Children when we see that one sandworm squirting his spice jizz all over that band of Fremen ... what sietch were they from again?

And who could forget the scene in Dune when Paul goes to ride his first worm and it gets all emo gushy on him and just lies there on the surface, whingeing on about its unhappy childhood down in the pre-bubble poop stew and how no one really ever understood it as a post-blow teen cyst.

SandChigger wrote:

outpouring |ˈoutˌpôri ng |
noun
something that streams out rapidly : a massive outpouring of high-energy gamma rays.
• (often outpourings) an outburst of strong emotion : spontaneous outpourings of affection and support | the unprecedented outpouring of tearful grief.

Yes, I remember that scene in Children when we see that one sandworm squirting his spice jizz all over that band of Fremen ... what sietch were they from again?

And who could forget the scene in Dune when Paul goes to ride his first worm and it gets all emo gushy on him and just lies there on the surface, whingeing on about its unhappy childhood down in the pre-bubble poop stew and how no one really ever understood it as a post-blow teen cyst.

Brian?

Tleszer wrote:Brian?

Yes, Theodore?

Well, I guess that reference flew over my head (unless it had something to do with singing chipmunks). And here I thought your description of sandworms with teen angst perfectly captured the essence of a certain Bri-Bri we all know and love.

ALVIN!!!!

Well, I guess it did!

Actually, it wasn't a reference to anything, just the first name that popped into my mind that I knew wasn't yours.

Love that teenworm angst!

Hey, Brian!



Here to enlighten us? Or got the day off of work and just slumming?

Serious question: how are things at KJASF? Rumor has it that it's a bit ... well, dead ... over there.

Have you tried to read better fiction and can't tell the difference, or is there some kind of incentive for you to dedicate all this effort to the writings of Kevin J. Anderson? And have you any word of James Harwood?

TheDukester wrote:Hey, Brian!



Here to enlighten us? Or got the day off of work and just slumming?

Serious question: how are things at KJASF? Rumor has it that it's a bit ... well, dead ... over there.

Hey there,

Just catching up on some reading today...

I wouldn't pay much attention to any rumors.