Sandworms Quotes Showing Poor Writing - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

[Freakzilla]

I still think that if Bill Ransom had been given the task of finishing Dune there would be a maximum of 1 person complaining about the product.

KJA? - "I don't understand!"

[Hunchback Jack]

First, In partial defense of KJA, I do not think that the way he writes books as he does, with the machine-like production of them, that keeping straight the word of Frank Herbert, and his universe is any easy task, at all.

Indeed. I think the fact that he's trying to write the Dune books in this fashion is precisely the problem. I also think he's incapable of writing in any other fashion, and he's therefore the wrong writer for Dune. I don't think you're defending KJA by saying that, though; just explaining the situation.

To write Dune books worthy of the name, you would need a writer who is willing to take the time to craft the novels, and to fact-check them with readers who know their shit. Given a good writer, you could still produce a Dune novel every year or two, if that writer wasn't trying to write four other novels that year, or edit the novel while watching TV, goddammit.

(And you're right about the critiquing. If I were the HLP, I'd pay Freak vast sums of money to proofread each one.)

I still think that if Bill Ransom had been given the task of finishing Dune there would be a maximum of 1 person complaining about the product.

KJA? - "I don't understand!"

HBJ

[E. LeGuille]

First, In partial defense of KJA, I do not think that the way he writes books as he does, with the machine-like production of them, that keeping straight the word of Frank Herbert, and his universe is any easy task, at all.

Indeed. I think the fact that he's trying to write the Dune books in this fashion is precisely the problem. I also think he's incapable of writing in any other fashion, and he's therefore the wrong writer for Dune. I don't think you're defending KJA by saying that, though; just explaining the situation.

To write Dune books worthy of the name, you would need a writer who is willing to take the time to craft the novels, and to fact-check them with readers who know their shit. Given a good writer, you could still produce a Dune novel every year or two, if that writer wasn't trying to write four other novels that year, or edit the novel while watching TV, goddammit.

(And you're right about the critiquing. If I were the HLP, I'd pay Freak vast sums of money to proofread each one.)

I said in partial defense, because I had intended to write more, but I was needing to get to sleep.
To finish, I think KJA writes for the audience he is meant to write for. But that same audience is not the Dune audience. In writing, the very core principles include your audience. Perhaps in the 6 prequels, that was considered, but I cannot see the evidence of considering an audience for Dune, as it was when Herbert was writing the books. But again, the readership has changed. A lot of people have a vested interest in Dune's legacy, because as we all know, you have to follow the money.

Take the Bible for instance. All these different versions basically just dumb it down. The shortest verse in the Bible is, "Jesus wept." You know that Hebrew, the verbal, and textual context of that statement was far greater? The enormity of the context was massive. The problem with that, however, is when you dumb it down, you take away the meaning.

I think that it was known what would happen. But if say, Bill Ransom had actually written the books, I do not think they would have caught on. Herbert's own Son can't proofread this stuff, because he sells this stuff, and as a writer, you aren't always aware of the bias you have towards your own creative skills. Or lack of.

So, Kevin is in fact, writing for the audience he is used to. TOR knows this, everyone knows this. Does this make him a hack? In the eyes of some people, sure -- because it is nothing on the level of where it should be. Some assume, when I had them read Atredies, and Dune, that Frank Herbert was too detailed. FRANK was at fault. People who come into this series, unaware, are looking at Frank and thinking he is too deep.

It's not KJA's fault, it's the readership he is accustomed to. He can write millions of books if he wants, and people will buy them, because they are comfortable with his level. People did not really understand Dune when it should have been understood. Now, it's too late, Frank is dead, and Brian really does not understand his own father's work well enough. It's impossible for him, and many others, to understand it. Frank was too good. Wrap your head around infinity. Some people just don't get it.

And Frank never meant for it to be this Star Wars, Trekkie, Harry Potter blockbuster. It was what it was. And I respected everything within those books because of that reason.

So, for Kevin, I wish he would really spend more time on these books then he does. I wish he would have someone proofread them. But, it's too late now. Unless they went in and revised their entire series in some way, I just cannot accept what he has done for Dune 7, as well as I cannot really do much else than buy the books, and perhaps one day read them.

[chanilover]

The only example of poor writing I can remember, and it was from one of the Legends books, was about Norma and said something along the lines of
"She was beyond compare, just like her mother."

[Hunchback Jack]

I'm afraid I simply don't agree with the whole "it's not KJA's fault" line.

If the HLP had decided suddenly to open up the Dune universe, to hire a writer to write novels that appeal to Star Wars fans, and enlisted KJA for that purpose, then I would be more inclined to agree with you. Then KJA would have been hired specifically to write a bunch of novels intended for a different audience, and a different purpose. Even if the HLP had hired KJA to write Frank-like books, and KJA was unable to, you could argue that it was more the HLP's fault for hiring the wrong guy for the job. You could argue that KJA could not rise above his own limitations to do something he was not capable of.

But that's not what happened, at least according to the authors.

The novels weren't intended to be franchise Dune-lite novels. From the start, the new books were aimed at traditional Dune fans, and were purported to continue Frank's series as Frank intended, using Frank's outlines and Frank's notes. Furthermore, it wasn't the HLP who initiates the idea of new books. KJA approached Brian, volunteering to continue the Dune series. The books are very much the way they are because of the way KJA writes them, not because they were always intended to be a new, easy-to-read, Dune-for-the-masses. Given the opportunity to write more Dune, KJA should have raised his game and done better than his best, not written by-the-numbers space opera trash the way he usually does. If he wasn't capable of doing that, he should have stood aside.

In short, then, I think that we had every right to expect the new Dune books to be worthy successors to Frank's originals, and the fact that they read more like Star Wars books has much more to do with KJA than it does with the HLP's goals or intentions.

HBJ

[Slugger]

I think the HLP and Brian knew what they were getting with Kevin. Just look at the way he presents himself.

Say the HLP sudden wakes up and goes: "WTF has been going on this pack decade?"

Do you think this could be salvaged by an experienced author?

[E. LeGuille]

And on the other side of the HLP coin, is the fact that they knew how Kevin wrote. If they expected something different, then... wow, how did that just not come across to them?

Even if Brian was approached, doesn't HLP hold the contract to publish? I think the fact is that Kevin believes he is doing a good job. Many think otherwise. Kevin doesn't realize his mistakes, because he doesn't think he made a mistake, and every time they sign a contract for more books HE KEEPS GETTING TOLD from the contract, that the guys in charge think he's awesome opossum.

If I went to work, and my customers hated my guts, but my mananger said, good job, then I would think, "Those customers are just ignorant. They don't understand."

HLP KNEW how Kevin wrote, and they are the ones at fault for putting a machine in there, to do a artist's job.

[Freakzilla]

I said in partial defense, because I had intended to write more, but I was needing to get to sleep.
To finish, I think KJA writes for the audience he is meant to write for. But that same audience is not the Dune audience.

Would that be Star Wars (book) fans? X-files fans? People with ADD? Regardless, it's insulting to DUNE fans.

In writing, the very core principles include your audience.

Who was the Dune audience before KJA slithered into the picture? I think that was us.

Those people mentioned above Perhaps in the 6 prequels, that was considered, but I cannot see the evidence of considering an audience for Dune, as it was when Herbert was writing the books. But again, the readership has changed. A lot of people have a vested interest in Dune's legacy, because as we all know, you have to follow the money.

By the readership having changed do you mean their intelligence droped so sharply that people can't see him for the hack he is?

Take the Bible for instance. All these different versions basically just dumb it down. The shortest verse in the Bible is, "Jesus wept." You know that Hebrew, the verbal, and textual context of that statement was far greater? The enormity of the context was massive. The problem with that, however, is when you dumb it down, you take away the meaning.

Now you're starting to understand why we're pissed off.

I think that it was known what would happen. But if say, Bill Ransom had actually written the books, I do not think they would have caught on. Herbert's own Son can't proofread this stuff, because he sells this stuff, and as a writer, you aren't always aware of the bias you have towards your own creative skills. Or lack of.

Who is they and what wouldn't they have caught on too?

So, Kevin is in fact, writing for the audience he is used to. TOR knows this, everyone knows this. Does this make him a hack? In the eyes of some people, sure -- because it is nothing on the level of where it should be. Some assume, when I had them read Atredies, and Dune, that Frank Herbert was too detailed. FRANK was at fault. People who come into this series, unaware, are looking at Frank and thinking he is too deep.

What are we, the life-long Dune fans, chopped liver? Maybe those people just weren't cut out for Dune.

It's not KJA's fault, it's the readership he is accustomed to. He can write millions of books if he wants, and people will buy them, because they are comfortable with his level. People did not really understand Dune when it should have been understood. Now, it's too late, Frank is dead, and Brian really does not understand his own father's work well enough. It's impossible for him, and many others, to understand it. Frank was too good. Wrap your head around infinity. Some people just don't get it.

And Frank never meant for it to be this Star Wars, Trekkie, Harry Potter blockbuster. It was what it was. And I respected everything within those books because of that reason.

So, for Kevin, I wish he would really spend more time on these books then he does. I wish he would have someone proofread them. But, it's too late now. Unless they went in and revised their entire series in some way, I just cannot accept what he has done for Dune 7, as well as I cannot really do much else than buy the books, and perhaps one day read them.

Like I often say, half the people you meet are below average intelligence.

KJA had no business playing in FH's sandbox. I've often said, he's like a utility company, "fuck the existing customers, we already have their money, we want NEW customers."

[Freakzilla]

I think the HLP and Brian knew what they were getting with Kevin. Just look at the way he presents himself.

Say the HLP sudden wakes up and goes: "WTF has been going on this pack decade?"

Do you think this could be salvaged by an experienced author?

Hell no, that's a waist of trees (even moreso). Can't we just pretend they weren't written? Label them YA alternate Duniverse fan fiction.

[Hunchback Jack]

I think the HLP and Brian knew what they were getting with Kevin. Just look at the way he presents himself

I'm not so sure. I think they saw an author who was enthusiastic, who "knew Dune", and who had a successful history of working with other authors and of writing in other universes. He also wasn't a complete unknown, so that some people would recognize his name as "an SF author" when placed under Brian's.

After the initial books came out, I don't think either the HLP or Tor *cared* very much what the books were like or who the readers were. They were selling very nicely, thank you, and if they were being bought by Star Wars franchise readers rather than traditional Dune fans, then so be it.

I think the target audience *became* what it was based on the way the books were written, not the other way around.

HBJ

[Hunchback Jack]

I think that it was known what would happen. But if say, Bill Ransom had actually written the books, I do not think they would have caught on. Herbert's own Son can't proofread this stuff, because he sells this stuff, and as a writer, you aren't always aware of the bias you have towards your own creative skills. Or lack of.

Who is they and what wouldn't they have caught on too?

I think he means that if Bill Ransom had written the books, they wouldn't have sold as well.

I doubt that's true. They would sell to a different audience, granted, but I think they still would have been very successful, and they surely would have been a more respectful work than the current crop of nonsense.

Even if they weren't, number of copies sold is not the only variable here. There's also respect for an author's legacy. Perhas thats naive, but there you have it.

HBJ

[Freakzilla]

I think that it was known what would happen. But if say, Bill Ransom had actually written the books, I do not think they would have caught on. Herbert's own Son can't proofread this stuff, because he sells this stuff, and as a writer, you aren't always aware of the bias you have towards your own creative skills. Or lack of.

Who is they and what wouldn't they have caught on too?

I think he means that if Bill Ransom had written the books, they wouldn't have sold as well.

I doubt that's true. They would sell to a different audience, granted, but I think they still would have been very successful, and they surely would have been a more respectful work than the current crop of nonsense.

Even if they weren't, number of copies sold is not the only variable here. There's also respect for an author's legacy. Perhas thats naive, but there you have it.

HBJ

Honestly, I don't care if FH's family makes one red cent. But they would have always had a trickle of money coming in from FH's books. Dune is a literary classic. I would rather have had one well thought out book that was respectful to the originals.

The HLP deliberatly sold out FH's legacy for a bigger profit. End of story.

[Hunchback Jack]

Absolutely. I don't want to imply that the HLP is blameless in this. At best, they're allowing it to continue; at worst, they recognized KJA for the hack he is from the beginning and hired him anyway.

But E. LeGuille's whole line of argument that the HLP orchestrated the whole thing, and poor little KJA is just doing his job the best he can to please his masters, is something I just don't buy. The books are crappy because KJA wrote them. They have plot holes and inconsistencies with each other and with themselves because KJA hasn't taken the time to make them better. They appeal to preeks not because they were designed to appeal to preeks, but because they *can* only appeal to people who don't care about what Dune was.

HBJ

[Freakzilla]

Snake oil, anyone?

[E. LeGuille]

I am not saying KJA is blameless. In fact, he is the author, so like a director of a movie, if the movie sucked it was not because of the actors.

I do completely understand why you are upset, Freakzilla. The loyal Dune fans are avidly mad, because HLP has chosen NEW over GOOD. Kevin is not blameless, because he is a Star Wars writer. He writes THAT genre. But DUNE is a different thing among itself, it is a completely different story then what he writes. Does he spend enough time on them? I don't think so. That you and I agree on.

What I am trying to say, is that it comes to the bigger Audience. Who is going to buy more books? People who read Ransom, or people who read Anderson? I am sorry, but as wonderful a writer as Ransom is, there are more people who read the Star Wars / Anderson name than really anyone else in SciFi. So, if you want a name to be on there, with the other Herbert, then who else are you going to choose? Kevin.

Is Kevin smug? Sure he is. HE presents himself that way because he has written... quite a bit. If anyone here had written as much as he has, I am sure you'd feel pretty good about yourself, right?

Here is a better analogy. My father owns a construction company. He hates Architects, because they don't consider building plans, cost, or code. They make the building on paper. Dad does the work in making it actually realistic, and shows how the 3-story castle isn't feasible. Why is there animosity between architect and general contractor? Because one sees the beauty of it, and one sees the actual building from materials.

Kevin is a contractor. He builds it.
Frank wa a gifted one, he was not only an architect, and artist, but also a solid foundational writer.
Kevin doesn't spend enough time to be like that. HLP chose him, knowing this. Kevin writes. He does what is expected of him, from his audience. Would you expect him to abandon the masses, and write for the few? That's literary suicide.

[SadisticCynic]

I'd say it might end up being 'financial suicide' but not 'literary suicide'. What he is doing is literary suicide because he is giving up a chance to write literature and instead has written to the lowest common denominator.

[Hunchback Jack]

What I am trying to say, is that it comes to the bigger Audience. Who is going to buy more books? People who read Ransom, or people who read Anderson? I am sorry, but as wonderful a writer as Ransom is, there are more people who read the Star Wars / Anderson name than really anyone else in SciFi. So, if you want a name to be on there, with the other Herbert, then who else are you going to choose? Kevin.

I really disagree with this. There are very successful, very *good* SF writers out there. Banks. Reynolds. Stephenson. I don't know the numbers, but these guys sell a lot of books. Ransom, like KJA, would get a *lot* of mileage from the books having "DUNE" on the cover. He would also get a lot of credibility for having worked with FH before. But unlike KJA, the books would appeal to the more traditional Dune fans.

I also think you're overstating KJA's popularity. People don't buy KJA books. They buy stars wars, x-files, and dune books *written by KJA*. There's a difference.

Is Kevin smug? Sure he is. HE presents himself that way because he has written... quite a bit. If anyone here had written as much as he has, I am sure you'd feel pretty good about yourself, right?

Yes, but does he have any *right* to be smug? For selling a lot of books? Maybe. For turning Dune into a LCD franchise? No.

Here is a better analogy. My father owns a construction company. He hates Architects, because they don't consider building plans, cost, or code. They make the building on paper. Dad does the work in making it actually realistic, and shows how the 3-story castle isn't feasible. Why is there animosity between architect and general contractor? Because one sees the beauty of it, and one sees the actual building from materials.

Kevin is a contractor. He builds it.
Frank wa a gifted one, he was not only an architect, and artist, but also a solid foundational writer.

The problem I have with this analogy is that while the architect and contractor have different, complementary roles in the creation of the building, FH and KJA are supposed to have the *same* role. They are both writers. Perhaps FH is a craftsman and KJA a machine, but that just characterizes the problem, it doesn't justify or explain it. All you're saying is that the HLP hired a writing machine to do a craftsman's job; no arguments there. But does that absolve KJA of the responsibility of doing justice to the series he signed up for? No.

Kevin doesn't spend enough time to be like that. HLP chose him, knowing this. Kevin writes. He does what is expected of him, from his audience. Would you expect him to abandon the masses, and write for the few? That's literary suicide.

Writers make that choice *every day*. Writers place their work above popularity or financial success all the time. They write based on what they want to say, what they want to create. Of course they want to be successful, but that doesn't determine what they write.

In KJA's case, he's not writing for himself, but writing in FH's universe. Is it too much to expect that, as a Dune fan and the one responsible for continuing on the legacy, that he should place respect for the series above financial considerations?

No. In fact KJA legitimized that expectation by claiming to be completing FH's work, using Frank's notes.

HBJ

[Slugger]

Is Kevin smug? Sure he is. HE presents himself that way because he has written... quite a bit. If anyone here had written as much as he has, I am sure you'd feel pretty good about yourself, right?

Of course I'd probably feel proud about myself, but that's no reason to be smug about it. Stephen King is another prolific writer, and I don't think he's smug.

[TheDukester]

People who read Ransom, or people who read Anderson?

Let's not get carried away here.

Very few of Kevin J. Anderson's lifetime sales are because of Kevin J. Anderson. The sales are from the big "Star Wars" or "X-Files" or "Dune" on the covers. If there was ever any doubt of this, his most recent solo effort — which has been a miserable failure despite a big multi-media marketing effort — served to confirm it. Even his most recent work-for-hire (the DC comics thing) sold poorly.

And the same thing applies to Bobo Herbert, too. His non-Dune books are complete non-sellers; he had to go to a vanity press just to get the third book in the Timeweb series published at all.

[Freakzilla]

People who read Ransom, or people who read Anderson?

Let's not get carried away here.

Very few of Kevin J. Anderson's lifetime sales are because of Kevin J. Anderson. The sales are from the big "Star Wars" or "X-Files" or "Dune" on the covers. If there was ever any doubt of this, his most recent solo effort — which has been a miserable failure despite a big multi-media marketing effort — served to confirm it. Even his most recent work-for-hire (the DC comics thing) sold poorly.

And the same thing applies to Bobo Herbert, too. His non-Dune books are complete non-sellers; he had to go to a vanity press just to get the third book in the Timeweb series published at all.

And THAT is why we call it McDune.

[Redstar]

Here is a better analogy. My father owns a construction company. He hates Architects, because they don't consider building plans, cost, or code. They make the building on paper. Dad does the work in making it actually realistic, and shows how the 3-story castle isn't feasible. Why is there animosity between architect and general contractor? Because one sees the beauty of it, and one sees the actual building from materials.

What?

Artists go to school and are force-fed the last 9,000 years of artistic development not so they can emulate it as uncreative drones, but to know the foundations of art so they can have a better starting-point in expressing their own concept of art.

I would imagine architects go to school to, at the very least, study what is necessary for "code" and "realism". They fill a complementary role, as Hunchback said, so they must know the basic foundation of building that forms the basis of two expressions: art/design for architects, and mass production/realization.

KJA fills neither role except in the loosest of ways.

[SandChigger]

Ghafla. Nothing but.


"To date, I have heard of only one mistake that doesn't have an explanation for a careful reader, or at least one with an open mind. (And, no, I'm not going to tell you what it is!)"
—Kevin J. Anderson

[Nekhrun]

The only example of poor writing I can remember, and it was from one of the Legends books, was about Norma and said something along the lines of
"She was beyond compare, just like her mother."

Holy shit! Was that the actual line?

[E. LeGuille]

Hm. These are all perspectives that I have not considered. It seems to me you are all very, very passionate about this subject, and I respect that. Before I say something further, I am going to study the situation more.

And, SandChigger -- I am sorry you consider me and what I say Ghafla. I am still learning about this stuff. Give it time, I will understand it more and more all the time.

I agree with everyone here -- It isn't right, and the merits of Ransom and other others writing Dune instead -- my mistake. I am not aware enough of their literary abilities, to judge them. It is all speculation on my part.

In fact, alot of things are speculation. So, I apologize. I do not want to make it seem like I want this to be, I don't. But I cannot see blaming One Man for the evils of the entire universe of Dune. Other hands are at work, right?

[TheDukester]

But I cannot see blaming One Man for the evils of the entire universe of Dune. Other hands are at work, right?

Certainly, although TheKJA is definitely our favorite "hand" around here.

But there's blame a-plenty to go around:

Brian Herbert: for not respecting his father, his life's work, or what it means to honor and protect a legacy that has been entrusted to you. And for selling his soul to a two-bit writer of bad Star Wars fanfic.

Becky J. Anderson: for being an enabler. And for having delusions of being a writer herself, despite a list of "credits" that begins and ends with Star Wars fanfic.

Byron Merritt: for being a spineless sellout. And a shill. For eliminating all intelligent discussion at his ridiculous message board.

The rest of the HLP: see entry for Brain Herbert. Add in something about greed.

SF fanbois: for their embarrassing tendency to be brain-dead, obsessive completists willing to buy anything that bears a franchise logo.

KJA's "editors" and "test-readers": for being an unfunny joke.