Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

SandRider wrote:TheKeith (with compliance & approval from #1 Son) simply rewrote
the basis of the Butlerian Jihad so as to include kewl-ass killer robots.

That's all there is to it.

Well said. And that's what I've been saying, too, but it just makes B. Conway get mad and call me an "imperial running dog" or whatever. And that makes me sad.

SandRider wrote: you CAN in fact hold two diametrically opposed ideas in your head,
but as Orwell pointed out, it just makes you a raving asshole ....

Here's a statement of what may be KJA's current thinking on Alia's OM:

Alia had additional advisers as well [SC: in addition to Jessica]—Other Memories that unfolded like fractal patterns inside her consciouness in a cacophony of conflicting advice. Often in her private chambers she would consume great amounts of spice, inducing a trance so that she could journey into that Bene Geserit archive of memories, and stir them up. She did not have the skill to pick and choose among them or locate any particular person as if she were querying a library. The memories came and went, with some presences shouting more loudly than others.

Um ... unless I missed something (or KJA did ), wasn't Alia's spice abuse intended to open her prescience, not her Other Memories?

This reminds me of Murbella and the "Great Tleilaxu Tank OM Block." More stupid misreadings.

Paul underwent the WoL spice trance to open his prescience fully (after he failed to foresee Gurney's attempt on his mother's life). Alia wanted the same ability. It had nothing whatsoever to do with their OM.

Ugh. That's pretty retarded. The pre-born and KHs are meant to have extremely detailed knowledge of their ancestors, yet one would guess that even Bellonda had better knowledge than Alia based on that. Also, he thinks he's smart for using the words "cacophony" and "fractal". Oooooh..

SandChigger wrote:Here's a statement of what may be KJA's current thinking on Alia's OM:

Alia had additional advisers as well [SC: in addition to Jessica]—Other Memories that unfolded like fractal patterns inside her consciouness in a cacophony of conflicting advice. Often in her private chambers she would consume great amounts of spice, inducing a trance so that she could journey into that Bene Geserit archive of memories, and stir them up. She did not have the skill to pick and choose among them or locate any particular person as if she were querying a library. The memories came and went, with some presences shouting more loudly than others.

Um ... unless I missed something (or KJA did ), wasn't Alia's spice abuse intended to open her prescience, not her Other Memories?

This reminds me of Murbella and the "Great Tleilaxu Tank OM Block." More stupid misreadings.

Paul underwent the WoL spice trance to open his prescience fully (after he failed to foresee Gurney's attempt on his mother's life). Alia wanted the same ability. It had nothing whatsoever to do with their OM.

She overdosed trying to identify the father of her future child (Duncan?) not knowing he was sheilded by Edric. She was always prescient, hers was muddied just as Paul's was by the Dune Tarot.

If anything, Alia would be trying to BLOCK OUT OM.

Now Alia and Jessica have drowned a worm (actually, it's her butch 'bians who do the dirty work ... muddy ... wrestling the giant worm ... it was HAWT!) and shared a WoL changing. (Duncan had some, too, and the 'bians made off with the rest. I'm not sure if this was supposed to be a mini tau orgy without the pelvic thrusts? ) Jessica has an odd trip:

And now, at the end of that long succesion of past lives, Jessica discovered a figure standing before her in a robe, the face covered by a hood that flapped in a silent wind. A male figure. Paul? Something compelled her to turn, and at the other end of eternity she found her son standing there as well, but he had no face or voice.

He finally speaks to her, blah blah blah.

Hey Redbugpest - are you ever going to respond here, or should I rack up another under "KJA fans who said they were willing to argue their beliefs but turned away when it became too difficult"? (you'd be in the company of at least Arnoldo, Simon, Byron and TAZ).
There are a few sumarizing post which would be easy to start from...

KJA is completely ignoring Alia's prescience so far. not suprising, as he seemed to think Pauls was as reliable as a fortune cookie.

SandChigger wrote:Here's a statement of what may be KJA's current thinking on Alia's OM:

Alia had additional advisers as well [SC: in addition to Jessica]—Other Memories that unfolded like fractal patterns inside her consciouness in a cacophony of conflicting advice.

How about congenital counterparts that creates chaotic congruences in her consciousness in a cacohpony of conflicting counsel?

Painful. Very painful.

Not just that, but he's combined a visual metaphor with an aural one in the same sentence. Jarring.

HBJ

Just a shameless bump...

I thought that Lundse may want to review this before I drop my more lengthy reply to where we left off (sorry, won't be tonight like I thought, but should be up in the morning).

And I'm quite certain Lundse doesn't need to review it, you fucking worthless moron.

redbugpest wrote:Just a shameless bump...

I thought that Lundse may want to review this before I drop my more lengthy reply to where we left off (sorry, won't be tonight like I thought, but should be up in the morning).

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll be travelling a bit tomorrow, but may bring my internet and have a chance to reply - but I might not have any real time till thursday...

Looking forward to it, though.

PS: Just a quick reminder to stick to the discussion, even though this post doesn't . This thread has a pretty specific topic, so lets stay on that - bystanders: keep the flames down, participants: ignore the flames (at least don't respond here), me: stay polite.

Lundse wrote:

redbugpest wrote:Just a shameless bump...

I thought that Lundse may want to review this before I drop my more lengthy reply to where we left off (sorry, won't be tonight like I thought, but should be up in the morning).

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll be travelling a bit tomorrow, but may bring my internet and have a chance to reply - but I might not have any real time till thursday...

Looking forward to it, though.

PS: Just a quick reminder to stick to the discussion, even though this post doesn't . This thread has a pretty specific topic, so lets stay on that - bystanders: keep the flames down, participants: ignore the flames (at least don't respond here), me: stay polite.

No problem - My day today was supposed to be quiet, and was - until I woke up. I am still finishing up writing my response form my notes, and will have it up by Tuesday at the latest, as it is a day off, and I will have my phone off as well to keep me from being bothered.

I do want to take this opportunity to ask you why it is you think Alia feels that she could never distrust a machine...

redbugpest wrote:
I do want to take this opportunity to ask you why it is you think Alia feels that she could never distrust a machine...

Are you serious? Lundse giving a detailed description of why Alia felt that way is the essence of this entire thread. Go back and re-read it man, he repeats the answer to your question more than once if I recall correctly.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:
I do want to take this opportunity to ask you why it is you think Alia feels that she could never distrust a machine...

Are you serious? Lundse giving a detailed description of why Alia felt that way is the essence of this entire thread. Go back and re-read it man, he repeats the answer to your question more than once if I recall correctly.

You forget you are talking to a Preeq here. They need a reminder of the previous page at the top of every new one.

Serkanner wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:
I do want to take this opportunity to ask you why it is you think Alia feels that she could never distrust a machine...

Are you serious? Lundse giving a detailed description of why Alia felt that way is the essence of this entire thread. Go back and re-read it man, he repeats the answer to your question more than once if I recall correctly.

You forget you are talking to a Preeq here. They need a reminder of the previous page at the top of every new one.

ZIGIDY-ZING-ZING!

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:
I do want to take this opportunity to ask you why it is you think Alia feels that she could never distrust a machine...

Are you serious? Lundse giving a detailed description of why Alia felt that way is the essence of this entire thread. Go back and re-read it man, he repeats the answer to your question more than once if I recall correctly.

Yes, it is the essense of the tread, posed as a question as to how she (Alia) could feel that way if she knew about Omnius. What I want to know is, Omnius not withstanding, why she would think that a all if she knew about the Jihad. Is it because (in your view) machines had no real role in the conflict, and that it was just a human versus human conflict?

That is what I want an answer to, and I do not see it stated as such in this tread.

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:
I do want to take this opportunity to ask you why it is you think Alia feels that she could never distrust a machine...

Are you serious? Lundse giving a detailed description of why Alia felt that way is the essence of this entire thread. Go back and re-read it man, he repeats the answer to your question more than once if I recall correctly.

Yes, it is the essense of the tread, posed as a question as to how she (Alia) could feel that way if she knew about Omnius. What I want to know is, Omnius not withstanding, why she would think that a all if she knew about the Jihad. Is it because (in your view) machines had no real role in the conflict, and that it was just a human versus human conflict?

That is what I want an answer to, and I do not see it stated as such in this tread.

YES man, I don't know how you missed it, but that is the feeling of more or less the ENTIRE OH community. It was HUMANS vs HUMANS with machines.

Where did we get such an idea? From Frank Herbert.

Machines had a real role in the conflict, but it was AS MUCH about the machine mentality as the machines.


Who said that?? Frank Herbert said that.

redbugpest wrote:What I want to know is, Omnius not withstanding, why she would think that a all if she knew about the Jihad. Is it because (in your view) machines had no real role in the conflict, and that it was just a human versus human conflict?

That is what I want an answer to, and I do not see it stated as such in this tread.

As Thing said, I don't think anyone is saying no machines ever took part in the fighting - what I am talking about, and what is really interesting, is how the conflict started and why. Who waged war on who? Machines trying to kill humans, or humans trying to destroy machines? Skynet or Butler?

In that light (or without it), I don't see why Alia could not claim "You could never distrust a machine". Trusting them was, as I have said somewhere before, obviously not the issue. The problem was:

• ...a machine-attitude as much as the machines...
• ...devices in the image of the mind...
• ...[a] "god of machine-logic"...
• ...turn[ing] their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free...
• That "We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines."

The machines were trusted and did not malfunction or try to eradicate mankind for no good reason. They did as ordered (including, if you believe the very probable scenario that they were used in the actual fighting, following orders to kill humans). That was the problem - and does not clash with "You could never distrust the machines".
That they tried to kill all of us does clash a bit...

Brilliant post, Lundse. Sums it up perfectly.

HBJ

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:
I do want to take this opportunity to ask you why it is you think Alia feels that she could never distrust a machine...

Are you serious? Lundse giving a detailed description of why Alia felt that way is the essence of this entire thread. Go back and re-read it man, he repeats the answer to your question more than once if I recall correctly.

Yes, it is the essense of the tread, posed as a question as to how she (Alia) could feel that way if she knew about Omnius. What I want to know is, Omnius not withstanding, why she would think that a all if she knew about the Jihad. Is it because (in your view) machines had no real role in the conflict, and that it was just a human versus human conflict?

That is what I want an answer to, and I do not see it stated as such in this tread.

For Christ sake. You are such a douche bag.

Frank Herbert himself wrote out that it was men vs. men with machines. This is impossible to misconstrue from the original text, unless you're a talentless hack or an idiot. The reality, which you are so mindlessly dancing around, is that the entire premise of the "Legends" trilogy is bullshit, from start to finish. It is a KJA hack-tastic travesty that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are no notes and that the Hack is just hike-tating an old idea he had for a Star Wars book and writing Dune on the cover.

"I do not see it stated as such in this thread" ... is misdirection and bullshit, just like all of your "posts" over here.

Part of Frank Herbert's message, delivered to humanity via Dune, is that humans depending on anything but their own innate potential and abilities, be that machines, gods, heroes or monarchs, is a bad thing that stagnates the individual and stagnates the species as a whole. Humanity rose up against machines, in Frank Herbert's Dune universe, because our dependence on them was slowly eroding the very nature of what it means to be human and it began to "kill" us. It was religious in nature because, ultimately, the conflict went (goes?) to the very heart of what it means to be human and, obviously, if the men-with-machines had actually been victorious in the "conflict" it would have resulted in humanity ultimately dying off.

I would refer you to dozens of other science fiction books written by other giants of the genre where a similar concept was put forward, with a twist, but I don't think you're smart enough to be able to read to that comprehension level (Foundation comes to mind).

To answer your bullshit inquiry

The reason Alia "could have thought that" despite knowing about the jihad is that in Frank Herbert's Dune the problem was NEVER machines attacking humanity. The problem, in Frank Herbert's Dune, was humanity depending upon machines to the point where it was stagnating and killing humanity. Thus, when other humans took a stand for the species and said "no more machines in the likeness of the human mind", those who were dependent upon the machines became (understandably?) upset. They didn't want to have to think for themselves, or plan for themselves, or handle the computing or boring daily tasks themselves. Thus the conflict. The machines were obedient ... machines ... for those humans who elected to depend on them and, as such, could be trusted as dependable and reliable tools.

For example: assuming that the code could be written in an bug-free way, with each program seamlessly error correcting on its own, you would (I assume) mindlessly and completely trust your home computer or laptop to function efficiently. Over time, and assuming that you used this computer or one at work to complete most of your daily tasks, your ability to complete those tasks (for example: simple mathematical calculations, reminders of where you're supposed to be and when, remembering important dates like your kid's birthdays) would slowly erode (this is the part where you stop and think ... wow, Frank Herbert was really onto something, cuz that's all happening in my life now). Now take that and expand it across most or all areas of human existence, from food production to medical treatment to warfare and then greatly expand the capabilities of the computers to the point where they can process the information and the systems on their own (i.e., the god of machine logic) to basically run the show on their own and ... presto ... you have the stagnation of humanity due to machines and a "problem" for humanity to recognize and address. However, if you're one of the people dependent on the machines to, basically, exist, then you're going to be understandably upset when someone comes to you and explains that they're taking your computers away to make you a better person, especially if you're content with your dependence and, in fact, believe the machines are doing a bang-up job all on their own.

I'm willing to bet that your next obfuscation is to ask, "but what if they programed the machines to act as sentient individuals?" In that case, then perhaps there could have been a war between machines and men, with ridiculous cross-dressing robots and all-knowing super computers ... that aren't actually all knowing or even connected across a particularly large distance despite the technology existing. However, Frank Herbert himself said/wrote that this was NOT the case in the Dune universe and as such it is not the case in the Dune universe, no matter how much the fucking Hack or Bobo the dancing hair wants it to be. Simply asking the question is Dune FAIL of massive proportions, as the machines would have to expressly be programmed to attack humanity or "defend" themselves from humanity (i.e., the original Battlestar Galactica). Even the abomination that is Terminator 3 got it right when it made the enemy not the Skynet system itself (as it was only a sophisticated computer system programed to respond to our input), but rather the virus which took over Skynet as the true enemy, because it was the virus which was programed to protect itself.

So, to sum up: How could Alia think "that"? Because that's the actual point that Frank Herbert was trying to make. The problem was never the computers in and of "them"selves, because the computers were inherently reliable and dependable, but rather the problem was humanity making use of the computers to the detriment and degradation of humanity as a whole.

/wow, that was a lot longer than I intended it to be.

Harumph!

That was probably the best explanation of the machine mentality I've ever read, rain_maker.