Zimbabwe: the breaking point


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GamePlayer
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Post by GamePlayer »

I'm forced to agree. I've been given first hand accounts of the shameful way in which the welfare system in my country "functions" and it's a disgrace. The tiny percentage of people that use the welfare system to help themselves attain something better compared to the vast majority of abusers only proves to me that welfare should be considered an unacceptable, unforgivable, and in all other words, inconceivable abuse of taxpayer money. If almost any other government program featured such an atrocious waste of taxpayer money, it would have ended in a massive legal scandal decades ago.

Where I disagree with Freak-Z is in taking it personal. I don't care if other countries hate us. But then again, I'm not an American, so perhaps it's easy for me to say. My point is nothing is changing. It's now been 50+ years of foreign aid in some cases and the amount of "progress" compared to the expense should be a crime against humanity. Again...the tiny number of nations that use foreign aid responsibly to help themselves attain something better compared to the vast majority of abusers only proves to me that foreign aid...well, you get the picture :)

But that's the emotional blackmail of our "democratic" (*chortle*) system. All the supporters of foreign aid need do is show that some village in some country no one knows anything about would have been destroyed if not for our shipment of grain and it somehow justifies the utter tragedy of wasting untold billions while our nation crawls on it's belly trying to prevent it's own economic collapse. We all buckle under the image of a starving child. We're extorted to an embarrassing degree by some poor person asking for help. If even one person is saved, somehow that emotionally justifies the flagrant squander of billions of dollars. Wishful thinking for a non-existent utopia at it's worst.

The real tragedy of all this is that we can no longer afford it. I wonder, once our democratic nations go bankrupt, how much help are we going to be to anyone else? And I wonder, with the atrociously ineffective aid we give, how would our aid be rated if any of those countries could poll their own people? I shudder to think of the answers.
Last edited by GamePlayer on 28 Jan 2009 15:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Freakzilla wrote:Believe it or not, FOX news is not my sole source. I mainly watch it for Megan and Martha.

:P

I work in the real world and I know it's much more common to get beaten down than to get praise.
Or that, because a leader of a country didn't say thank-you (or did, and you just didn't hear about it because, lets face it, that kind of thing isn't entertainment worthy enough for the news, conservative or liberal) that his people deserve to suffer more?
This kind of attitude really pisses me off. You make it sound as if it's our fault they are suffering in the first place. Where would they be if we'd never given aid?
The attitude you're describing pisses me off too, and I agree with you, good thing I don't have that attidute. :wink:
I'm not quite getting what I think across to you here, maybe I'll come up with some better way to phrase it... I'm basically trying to say that just because you didn't hear the thank-you, doesn't mean you should assume it wasn't there, and have that be a reason to stop helping your fellow people.

Though of course, there is no moral law stating that you must help your fellows, it is a free choice, and should remain a free choice.

(and actually, for the record - A LOT of the poverty in the world IS caused by us in North America. A LOT - do some reading on Shell, or Coca-Cola for starters)
Same goes for welfare in our own country. Once you give someone a handout they take it for granted and if you cut it off you're evil.

Honestly, I think we should pull out all of our troops worldwide and station them along the borders and cancel all foreign aid until we get our own affairs in order.
That's one way to think. Not my way, but go for it, if that's the way you think.

Might as well also do the same with each state, then with each town, then with each street, then each house, then each person IMO though.

I'm not trying to offend you, I just can't understand this kind of thought at all, and I wish I could so I could stop butting heads with people and start actually conversing.
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Post by Freakzilla »

I wouldn't say I'm personally offended. Maybe on a nationalist level.

I'm mainly just angry that we waste so much money on other countries when we have starving people right here.

[edit]

Thanklessness is not really the issue, though it doesn't help.
Last edited by Freakzilla on 28 Jan 2009 15:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

GamePlayer wrote:I'm forced to agree. I've been given first hand accounts of the shameful way in which the welfare system in my country "functions" and it's a disgrace. The tiny percentage of people that use the welfare system to help themselves attain something better compared to the vast majority of abusers only proves to me that welfare should be considered an unacceptable, unforgivable, and in all other words, inconceivable abuse of taxpayer money. If almost any other government program featured such an atrocious waste of taxpayer money, it would have ended in a massive legal scandal decades ago.

Where I disagree with Freak-Z is in taking it personal. I don't care if other countries hate us. But then again, I'm not an American, so perhaps it's easy for me to say. My point is nothing is changing. It's now been 50+ years of foreign aid in some cases and the amount of "progress" compared to the expense should be a crime against humanity. Again...the tiny number of nations that use foreign aid responsibly to help themselves attain something better compared to the vast majority of abusers only proves to me that foreign aid...well, you get the picture :)

But that's the emotional blackmail of our "democratic" (*chortle*) system. All the supporters of foreign aid need do is show that some village in some country no one knows anything about would have been destroyed if not for our shipment of grain and it somehow justifies the utter tragedy of wasting untold billions while our nation crawls on it's belly trying to prevent it's own economic collapse. We all buckle under the image of a starving child. We're extorted to an embarrassing degree by some poor person asking for help. If even one person is saved, somehow that emotionally justifies the flagrant squander of billions of dollars. Wishful thinking for a non-existent utopia at it's worst.

The real tragedy of all this is that we can no longer afford it. I wonder, once our democratic nations go bankrupt, how much help are we going to be to anyone else? And I wonder, with the atrociously ineffective aid we give, how would our aid be rated if any of those countries could poll their own people? I shudder to think of the answers.
Fair enough GP. Obviously we dissagree on some of what should be done about this, but I don't actually dissagree with the basis of anything you have written here.

There is a big difference between the way you apply logic to this subject, and a simple emotional rebuttle of "everyone hates us so screw them", which I have a problem with.
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Post by Freakzilla »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:There is a big difference between the way you apply logic to this subject, and a simple emotional rebuttle of "everyone hates us so screw them", which I have a problem with.
That's just part of the issue. Like I said, I think we should get our own house in order before we try to help others.
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:There is a big difference between the way you apply logic to this subject, and a simple emotional rebuttle of "everyone hates us so screw them", which I have a problem with.
That's just part of the issue. Like I said, I think we should get our own house in order before we try to help others.
I see where people who say this are coming from, but I don't think our own house will ever be in order (what would "in order" even be? How good is good enough?). Especially since the world IS our house now. When the economy takes a hit in Korea, we loose jobs here (My family's elk farm went out of business 7 or 8 years ago for exactly this reason). No amount of protectionism can prevent that (makes it worse in many cases).

My point is that in order to make our own homes better, we have to help others. What applies in life (help those around you, friends, family, because it benifits yourself too) applies in the world as well. I agree with GP and you that much of what we are doing is being wasted, but that means we need to change what and how we are doing, not stop. I can see how frustration at the waste would make one want to stop, but I honestly believe that would just make things worse, and wouldn't help anyone in the long run.
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Post by Freakzilla »

I'd like to see "earmarks" or "pork barrel spending" eliminated from Congress. That alone would save billions.

I'd like serious welfare reform. Welfare should be for people between jobs, not a means of support.

I'd like smaller federal government and more decisions given to the individual state and local governments.

That would be a good start.
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Freakzilla wrote:I'd like to see "earmarks" or "pork barrel spending" eliminated from Congress. That alone would save billions.

I'd like serious welfare reform. Welfare should be for people between jobs, not a means of support.

I'd like smaller federal government and more decisions given to the individual state and local governments.

That would be a good start.
Agreed.

If you really hate how charity and aid function, I'd recommend you read a book by someone who would agree with you, but has won a nobel prize for helping end world poverty: Muhammad Yunus - the book is called Banker to the Poor - Micro-lending & The Battle Against World Poverty If our governments would switch to doing loans the way Muhammad does we could probably have everyone on the planet rich in a few decades. This is one of those rare people who might actually help save this shit-hole of a world.

(I like how we get all riled up and then wind back down and change the subject slightly to things we agree on :D )
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Post by GamePlayer »

Freakzilla wrote:I wouldn't say I'm personally offended. Maybe on a nationalist level.
No? Well then allow me... :P :lol:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Fair enough GP. Obviously we dissagree on some of what should be done about this, but I don't actually dissagree with the basis of anything you have written here.

There is a big difference between the way you apply logic to this subject, and a simple emotional rebuttle of "everyone hates us so screw them", which I have a problem with.
That's alright. Sometimes it just helps to vocalize frustrations. Our government (and our voters, they aren't off the hook either) just make the same mistakes so many times over, that in order to maintain sanity, it is sometimes necessary to voice frustrations. If only to affirm that those mistakes are not to be accepted as truth just because almost everyone else repeats them over and over. :)
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Post by Freakzilla »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:(I like how we get all riled up and then wind back down and change the subject slightly to things we agree on :D )
I take it as a sign of a healthy community. :D
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Post by SandRider »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I hate those Christian Childrens Fund commercials. At least they got rid of Sally Struthers.

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BARON HARKONNEN? :shock:

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Post by Freakzilla »

SandRider wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I hate those Christian Childrens Fund commercials. At least they got rid of Sally Struthers.

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BARON HARKONNEN? :shock:

ATTENTION PETER BERG !!
If she had red hair she could be Alia possed by the Baron.
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Post by SandRider »

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Nobody appreciates our help anyway, WTF should we do anything if it's not in our own best interest?
To be fair, there are a lot of people who really do appreciate the aid, and there has been a lot accomplished. Just because the problems haven't gone away doesn't mean nothing is being done. I really have no idea where you've gotten the idea that foreign aid goes un-appreciated, or that it does no good.

I think you've been watching too much FOX. :wink:
I've never once heard a representative from a foreign country offer thanks for our help.

We only hear how evil we are.
give me a minute and I'll put up more links, just off the UN's site,
of proclaimations from other governments thanking the US governement
for all kinds of shit than you could ever read.

it happens all day, every day. It's just not "news" to people at FOX.
(or CNN, for that matter.)

I like you a whole helluvalot Freak, and I've got some big-time respect
for you, but you really need a dose of political reality. Or objectivity.
Or Tennessee sippin' whiskey.
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Freakzilla wrote:I'd like to see "earmarks" or "pork barrel spending" eliminated from Congress. That alone would save billions.

I'd like serious welfare reform. Welfare should be for people between jobs, not a means of support.

I'd like smaller federal government and more decisions given to the individual state and local governments.

That would be a good start.
And while I'm at it, I've said this to you before, and I'll say it again.

"Pork Barrel", "earmarks" and "special interests" are totally
fucking meaningless words in today's politics.

Again:

Your "Pork Barrel Project" is my "Vital Infrastructure Spending".

It's only a "special interest" when the money's not spent in my District.

[edit]
and oh christ, welfare reform : have you still not read the Welfare Reform
Act of 1996 ? Still in effect and working well. Your view of "welfare" sounds
like Archie Bunker from 1974. Not the way the system works, anymore,
and hasn't for a long time.
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Post by SandRider »

Freakzilla wrote:
SandRider wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I hate those Christian Childrens Fund commercials. At least they got rid of Sally Struthers.

Image
BARON HARKONNEN? :shock:

ATTENTION PETER BERG !!
If she had red hair she could be Alia possed by the Baron.
Photoshop artistes, have your way with this one ....
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I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
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Post by Freakzilla »

SandRider wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I'd like to see "earmarks" or "pork barrel spending" eliminated from Congress. That alone would save billions.

I'd like serious welfare reform. Welfare should be for people between jobs, not a means of support.

I'd like smaller federal government and more decisions given to the individual state and local governments.

That would be a good start.
And while I'm at it, I've said this to you before, and I'll say it again.

"Pork Barrel", "earmarks" and "special interests" are totally
fucking meaningless words in today's politics.

Again:

Your "Pork Barrel Project" is my "Vital Infrastructure Spending".

It's only a "special interest" when the money's not spent in my District.
Which is why I think states should have more power.
[edit]
and oh christ, welfare reform : have you still not read the Welfare Reform
Act of 1996 ? Still in effect and working well. Your view of "welfare" sounds
like Archie Bunker from 1974. Not the way the system works, anymore,
and hasn't for a long time.
That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me today! :wink:
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Post by Freakzilla »

I just find it underhanded the way they put their earmarks in totally unrelated bills.

If you really need the money that badly get your Senator or Representative to sponsor its own bill.
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Post by SandRider »

ok, now some of that makes more sense

I agree with the states' rights part, but we lost that fight in
Pennsylvania in July of 1863 ....

I do agree with you on the method of putting earmarks into
unrelated bills to ensure passage - but that's part of the modern
politics, too - back scratching.

In theory, for purposes of utilitarianism, I'd be for a presidential
line-item budget veto, if such a power wasn't TOTALLY FUCKING
UN-CONSTITUTIONAL.

not that the Federal government has ever let the Constitution stand in it's
way of a Power Grab.....
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Post by Freakzilla »

The Civil War ain't over, it's just halftime! :wink:

Is slipping earmarks into unrelated bills so we don't find out about it until a month later constitutional?

Even if so, it's dishonest. Oh wait, we're talking about politicians.

:roll:
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Post by TheDukester »

SandRider wrote:I agree with the states' rights part, but we lost that fight in
Pennsylvania in July of 1863 ....
That was a great game, though. I'm telling you, if you could have gotten your reserve tailbacks into the game (France and Britain), that sucker might have gone into overtime.
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Post by Freakzilla »

TheDukester wrote:
SandRider wrote:I agree with the states' rights part, but we lost that fight in
Pennsylvania in July of 1863 ....
That was a great game, though. I'm telling you, if you could have gotten your reserve tailbacks into the game (France and Britain), that sucker might have gone into overtime.
If the Army of Northern Virginia had gone guerrilla it might still be going.

Anyone else see the movie CSA a few years ago?

http://www.csathemovie.com/
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Post by SandRider »

yeah, sure, the practice is legal as all hell.

one of the reasons for the huge congressional staffs they
got nowadays. Takes them kids weeks to dig thru a bill
looking for things their congressman can object to, and even
then, there's no human way to read it all ....

and I got a specific "earmark" example for you ....

my LittleBigTown just signed a development contract with a company
to build a little factory to do finishing work on wind turbine components -
paint the towers and install the ladders and do a lot of prep work -

the site will sit across from the landfill on the north side of town by
the railroad track. This railroad line almost dead, it runs right by my
farm and I see maybe two or three trains a week.

but, to get this cargo into the site, there's going to have to be some
bridge improvements over a river about 3 counties away.

so our boys are cajoling those county boys and the state congressmen
and the US Congressman for the district for the Federal Funds thru the
Railroad Commision to get the bridge up to code for the expected load.

this is a pretty big project for this little area, we were economically
depressed long before everybody else - windfarms are saving us the
way sheep did in the drought of the 1950s.

the factory contruction itself will provide alot of jobs, then the factory
workers themselves when the plant goes online, and the railroad line
will be saved.

all this hinges on the bridge.

so if my slimy little Washington weasel can slip in the money for the
bridge on the appropriation for George W. Bush's Secret Service detail,
or the Wolf Project in Wyoming, or where the fuck ever, I'm going to
be for it.

If he has to vote for one of his buddies "special interests" to get his
earmark in, fine and dandy. That's just the way it's working.

in reality, ethics takes a back seat to giving my people jobs...

I'm not saying I'm agreeing with the system - hell, you know damn
well I think the Federal Government's been broken since the 1860s.

John McCain would call an earmark for this bridge "wasteful spending"

I'd call it "food on the table" ....
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Post by Freakzilla »

I understand what you're saying. I just think there has to be a better way, like delegating that authority to the states. I'm sure your state government knows how important that bridge is.

Hell, roads and bridges shouldn't be a federal responsibility anyway, all they need to do is set the code/standard.
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Post by Nekhrun »

Nebiros wrote:I'll take Nekhrun's advice...
It's about time someone did. You've always been a good listener. I'm sure fanta will have plenty to say on the matter.

(Is he still alive?)
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Post by SandChigger »

(Who? FantaPop? Well ... yes and no. He's technically brain-dead, but his overwhelming stupidity and Cuban jingoism live on. The two seem to have bought a condo in Bogota together and have settled down and are already starting a new family and everything. :P )

Poor Nebby. 9 views over on DN but nary an answer.

:lol:
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